Goodbye?
FROM THE WEBMASTER
Yesterday, for the first time, Michael Metzler requested that this site be removed. You can see his comment here:
This site is plain silly and I ask you to take it down immediately. It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks. It is also libelous off the gate by implying on the main page that I don’t except criticism to be posted at Pooh’s Think. Please remove it from the internet; you do not have my persmission to photo copy my site. I thought my opinion about this matter was already clear enough. I will not be commenting here any further. (However, I’m not very concerned one way or the other since it doesn’t seem folks are very interested in this black and white version of the Wood)
Thank you
Michael Metzler
Comment by Michael Metzler | January 18, 2007
1) I am a little surprised that Mr. Metzler is annoyed by this mirror. It simply helps him be accountable in a similar fashion to that he demands of others.
2) Mr. Metzler should consult the legal definition of libelous. I have helpfully provided it.
3) There is no proof that Mr. Metzler actually does what he says, and his unwillingness to prove this by opening up his comments is suggestive. You do not provide open criticism at Pooh’s Think. (Michael, the key word in that sentence is open.)
4) I have not advertised my own opinions, and I will continue to keep my criticisms of Mr. Metzler to myself (other than the obvious inconsistency of interaction and discussion). But I am not a kinist.
If anyone is interested in discussing this matter further with me, or if Mr. Metzler would like this mirror to resume, please e-mail me at poohsthink@yahoo.com
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Too much accountability for Michael.
The only thing this site has proved is how little interest there is in Michael’s writing
Who cares what Michael thinks about this site? It’s fun to get his goat, and easy too.
“I will not be commenting here any further”
Haven’t you said this before?
“However, I’m not very concerned one way or the other since it doesn’t seem folks are very interested in this black and white version of the Wood.”
Maybe it’s because you are nothing more than a sophist windbag.
“It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.”
Isn’t calling me a kinist with no proof an ungrounded remark?
“Who cares what Michael thinks about this site? It’s fun to get his goat, and easy too.”
It sure is….:-)
Actually I for one, am glad that MM leaves his comment section off, being the coward that he really is. It gives me one less reason to check out his site to see what others have said. I do like your site on the other hand. Keep mirroring MM’s site and don’t let the little bully push you around.
\”It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.\”
Michael, you\’ve been carrying Doug Phillips\’ water and being his little errand boy for weeks while you accuse anyone who challenges you of being a \”kinist.\” Where\’d you learn that ad hom from? Matt Chancey?
Obviously you didn\’t bother to even check Phillips out. Didn\’t you know that Phillips and his father are both racists?
http://graceindelible.blogspot.com/2007/01/joe-friday-on-doug-phillips-and-matt.html
Let\’s all now watch while Metzler just ignores this.
Doug Phillips is a racist? Whooooboy!
So now the truth finally comes out. MM is consorting with racists, and not just any racist, but Doug Phillips.
Tsk, tsk. Very naughty Michael. Now it\’s all making sense why you accuse everyone of being kinists. You\’re just trying to divert the attention away from your racist self. Michael you are such a hypocrite.
Michael\’s just gotta love this one from Doug Phillips and his praise of the bigot R.L. Dabney, \”Hail Dabney, prophet of the South, our great apologist… And so with joy we doff our hats and shout from every mouth: Hail Dabney, wise apologist, defender of the South!\”
But isn\’t that spelled \”Heil\”?
Dear Webmaster,
Since you can’t repost the entire blog by MM, could you link it instead? That wouldn’t be a photocopy.
Jonathan,
That is a very good idea, and I will consider it seriously.
Boy, what is coming out about the kinist links with Chancey, Doug Phillips, etc., is incredible.
Did they really believe this would not come out? They owe Harry an apology.
Even Chancey’s wife, Jenny, who writes on DP’s VF site, has a father who is a fellow travellor kinist. She was raised on this stuff.
Personally, I find them all disgusting and UNBiblical.
Michael, you are keeping some strange company. Better quit taking Chancey’s phone calls.
Pooh,
I’m curious, are you being sued by MM to keep this site down? I don’t think there is any law that say’s you can’t mirror his site. You always point the source out and you never claim that his thoughts are your thoughts. (this is good for you)
I say put it back up and then there will only be one hit a day back at Pooh shtink.
“It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.”
You are so funny Michael! Accusing others of “libelous and ungrounded remarks” and then you go and accuse anyone who comes here of being kinists? You are a piece of work.
Now on top of everything else it comes out that you’re in bed with a racist. What are you going to do for an encore?
Mike, I’m very disappointed in you to learn that you’re a racist. With all the skinheads, neo-Nazis and Aryan Nations types we’ve got here in Idaho I never had you figured for a racist. You know how I feel about racists Mike. Repent, while there’s still time!
Michael Metzler, What Are You Thinking?
To the Admin of this blog: Please don’t take the articles down! If you do that Mike will never open up his comments! You’re not violating any copyright laws by mirroring Pooh. If you were all Mike would have to do is complain about it to WordPress and they’d pull the plug. Just let him go and whine to WordPress and see what happens. Nothing will happen, which will be proof that your site is legit.
Michael, did you really compare Doug Phillips to Adolph Hitler? Did you really say this? “But Hitler’s direct and immediate influence was fairly mild compared to what the spreading of his ethos and ideology was able to produce.”
Hitler’s reign of terror killed millions of people and the “immediate influence was fairly mild”? Are you nuts or are you some kind of a Neo-Nazi?
“Are you nuts or are you some kind of a Neo-Nazi?”
I don’t think that Michael is a neo Nazi. If he is he’s kept it a secret. But I guess if you’re a neo Nazi you’d probably want it to be a secret. Not a real popular thing to be.
What I’m not as confident about saying is that Michael isn’t nuts. I’m thinking he may be nuts. I know he’s not stable. I’m very worried for Pastor Wilson.
Why did Michael move right across the street from Wilson? Of all the houses he could have rented he picked that one. From his house Michael would have an easy shot with a camera, binoculars, telescope… or another kind of “scope.”
Moving in that house wasn’t just a coincidence. Michael did that deliberately. At the very least it’s stalking, and who knows what else Michael has in mind for Wilson. We need to keep Pastor Wilson in our prayers.
Shoot, you only live once.
Here’s a good idea for Badonicus’ old fetid backwaters theatre production:
1. Doug Phillips (Sauron)
2. Matt Chancey (Saromon)
3. R.C. Sproul, Tim Dick, Ryan Dick, Anonymous Watchmen (Ring Wraiths)
4. Michael Metzler (Gollum)
5. Jennifer and Mark Epstein (Aragon and Lady Luthien -after all, it was inter-racial marriage)
6. Brandon Giromini and Jason Janz (Merry and Pippen)
7. HLS and Frank Vance (Frodo and Sam)
8. Watchman (Gandalf)
Actually, I’ve changed my mind. This site helps get the message out. Could you bring it back?
Having a hard time making up your mind? If you change your mind now you could change your mind again next week. When your ready to make up your mind PERMANENTLY let the Pooh Webmaster know.
You’re just not getting it bub! The idea here is that you open the comments on your blog and then Mr. Pooh w/Comments Webmaster won’t have any need for this site and he’ll probably take it down. Capisce?
Michael is such a ditz.
He is also a coward. You will never see a comments section on his Pooh Shtinks.
Michael,
I don’t understand what’s going on here. I thought the plan was that you were supposed to say nice things about me. Why are you comparing me to Hitler? That wasn’t the arrangement.
Now I leave you with another one of my favorite poems.
Hail Dabney!
Doug
And today from the Boy who would be a bear.
For Sale!
Closer to a Narrative & Metaphor Thesis
I am selling my 1997 Toyota Tacoma 4 wheel drive truck, two year old aluminum trailer, and two year old hefty Wagner paint sprayer.
I guess that spending time on the computer doesn’t pay as well as it used to….
Anybody notice how Metzler hasn’t blogged about his favorite whipping boy for over two weeks now? Metzler hasn’t even just mentioned Doug Wilson by name! That’s got to be a new record. Did Metzler finally get over his Doug Wilson obsession? If he has then maybe he’s made a good investment in those philosophy classes. It all sounds real boring to me. Maybe for a bear of very little brain its theraputic?
Rabbit, it would be great if Metzler had lost his case of Wilsonmania, but I don’t think that’s what’s happened. Metzler’s fetish with Doug Wilson has as strong a hold on Metzler as ever. As “Kirker” already said Metzler deliberately rented a house right across the street from Pastor Wilson, and then he even posted an article bragging about doing it. Does it get any more obsessed than that? That’s just sick. No, Metzler’s Wilsonmania isn’t over. I’m very concerned over Metzler’s Wilsonmania. Nothing good ever comes of those kinds of sick obsessions, and sometimes really bad things happen.
Here’s what’s going on right now with Metzler’s sudden interest in posting such tedious articles. Metzler’s deliberately posting articles that he knows are so boring that he’ll lose readership. Sounds a little weird doesn’t it? It’s not. For a bear of very little brain it’s actually kind of clever.
Take a look at this comment Metzler made on Feb 2. “Boy, going philosophical with one’s blog is a good way to go! No more controversy. No more questions.” Since when is Metzler afraid of controversy? Metzler loves controversy, especially any controversy he can whip up over (as you say Rabbit) his “favorite whipping boy.”
Metzler loves broadcasting controversy, and he loves the attention of being a scandalous muckraking tabloid propagandist. He loves shoveling muck, but he’s real scared about being on the receiving end of it. He loves to dish it out, but like Doug said, Metzler is a coward. God knows he’ll never be a man and open his blog for comments.
So Metzler the coward is ducking for cover because he’s put himself right in the middle of a controversy. It’s not just any controversy, it’s a racist controversy.
So who’s “asking questions”? How can we even ask a coward like Metlzer questions when his blog doesn’t permit comments? Oh, right, there were questions popping up right here just before Feb 2. Really embarrassing questions about Metzler’s secret love life with racists.
Then on Feb 15 Metzler said, “(This is a good way of getting rid of my readership. Looks like I will loose another 600 IP addresses this month!)”
I’ve never heard of a blogger who wanted to deliberately do something to “loose” (isn’t that “lose”?) his readership. So what’s Michael got in mind? Just who is Michael’s “readership” that he’d like to dump them? Christ Church members and Doug Wilson fans (like me) who are sick and tired of his perpetual attacks on Doug Wilson? Unlikely. Metzler gets his jollies from verbally harassing Wilson and his fans. He’d never want to lose us as readers, not permanently anyway. Harassing Pastor Wilson and the Kirk gives Metzler the kind of sick satisfaction that it gives a demented teenage boy to tie the tails of two cats together and hang them over a clothes line.
Metzler’s been having way too much fun being an internet arsonist. Why would he want to stop throwing firebombs, and why now? Has he repented? Has he come to his senses? Does he feel bad about all the harm he’s caused to Doug Wilson and Christ Church, and probably a lot of other brethren in Christ too? Has anyone seen Metzler post any letters of apology to Doug Wilson and the Kirk?
Metler’s not planning on stopping his internet arsonism at all. What he’s doing now is just temporary. It’s a ploy. All he’s doing is trying to get the racist spotlight off himself by boring everyone to tears with his dull philosophy articles. When that’s accomplished he’ll just go right back to attacking Pastor Wilson and Christ Church and anyone who defends them.
Now that it’s come out that Metzler is consorting with one of the biggest racists in Reformedom, all of a sudden Metzler went on record that he wants to “loose” his readership. You’ll notice that it’s not just Doug Wilson that Metzler’s not talking about right now. The real object of Metzler’s non-discussion is Doug Phillips, Matt Chancey and Mrs. Binoculars, and we’ll probably never hear a word from Metzler about them again. He’d just like for everyone’s memory of his playing footsies under the table with racists to fade into the memory hole. Metzler knows that it won’t fade into the memory hole anytime soon that Doug Phillips and his good friend Matt Chancey are racists though. http://graceindelible.blogspot.com/2007/02/whirled-views-on-doug-phillips-and.html. We’ll all remember that one for a good long while. So Metzler’s only move now is to pretend like his little racist menage a trois never happened.
Metzler got his nose stuck in the honey pot once again. He’ll have an even harder time getting himself unstuck from this sticky mess than he did over getting busted for lying on Doug Wilson’s blog over being “one of the most non-anonymous people on the internet.” He knows the smart move is to just try and ignore the story of his kissing under the mistletoe with racists and hopefully the story will eventually die.
For all you Doug Wilson bashers, I’m sorry to say that you probably don’t have anything to worry about. Metzler’s break from Doug Wilson bashing is just probably just temporary. He’ll go back to bashing Pastor Wilson just as soon as this racist dustup settles down.
Interesting theory Evil Twin. You may really be onto something. Your explanation is the only thing that makes sense.
I have to wonder though why Metzler still links to Mrs. Binoculars in his sidebar? Could that be just an oversight? Or is he actually proud to be associating with racists?
Wow! This is really interesting. I’ll have to check in here more often.
MM must be linking to Mrs. Binoculars because he’s sending his racist friends a message. “Don’t worry guys, I’m still with you.” [wink, wink] Who are MM’s friends? The only friends he’s got left are racists and malcontent crackpots who spend their lives attacking popular religious figures.
No doubt about it. MM’s sending signals. Take a look at this other signal he just sent to his racist friends. “The skin heads were a bit north, closer to the Canadian boarder (my wife’s family once entertained one in route).” Wow! An open admission of family connections to Skinheads! What will MM think of next? Is there another hidden message in there too? What does he mean by “boarder”? Just more bad spelling or was the Skinhead a boarder in the home of his in-laws?
Metzler is putting Matt Chancey and Mrs. Binoculars on par with reputable institutions of academia and journalism. Check out his links list.
* Harvard Law
* Literary Universals
* Literature, Cognition, & the Brain
* Michael O’Rourke
* Mrs. Binoculars
* Stanford Encyclopedia
* The New York Times
* Washington Post
* Yale Law School
Does anybody really believe that Metzler is a rational clear thinking philosophy wonk?
And what is anyone supposed to make of his latest? “Who is going to read this stuff? Beats me; I’m just enjoying watching my blog stats go down as I get more specific. That’s the glory of academia you know: the better you are, the less people there are who will read your stuff.”
Let me see if I understand Metzlerese. The more boring, incoherent and irrelevant your articles “the better you are.” The fewer the people in the world who’d waste their time reading your boring, incoherent and irrelevant blog articles “the better you are.”
The difference between a guy like me and Metzler is that I won’t ever start a blog because I already know there’d no point in it. No one would be interested in reading what I’ve got to say. But Metzler thinks having a blog that having a blog to bore people out of their minds is a great use of his time. Go figure.
Metzler’s been posting articles lately about cults, cult leaders, and cult psychology. Methinks he’s building up to trying to make a comparison between cult leaders and Doug Wilson. If there’s any comparison at all to be made it’s only in the delusional mind of Michael Metzler.
A pastor who knows Doug Wilson apparently thinks the same. “Shephard” posted a great comment on another blog. I’ll quote just a portion of it —
Rather than being motivated by independent clear thinking Michael Metzler is motivated entirely by what Doug Wilson says! It’s tragic to witness because in a very real sense Metzler’s life is governed by what his former pastor says. It’s one of the most pathetic forms of bondage I’ve ever seen, and it’s entirely self-imposed. Metzler thinks that Doug Wilson is running a cult because in a very real sense Metzler is functioning under a form of mind control, not unlike what happens in real cult groups. The difference is that Pastor Wilson never did anything to impose any mind control on him. Metzler did it all himself, and even a year after he’s been out of the Kirk he’s still operating under his self-imposed mind control…
By comparison Metzler never proved anything in the way of spiritual abuse about Pastor Wilson. What he may have proven to some people’s satisfaction is that Pastor Wilson isn’t perfect and Christ Church isn’t perfect. Is that some kind of shocking news? All Metzler’s really proven beyond a reasonable doubt is that he’s made a nuisance of himself and his church got fed up with him and asked him to leave. Unlike the Epsteins he was never excommunicated or even disciplined in any way that would be consistent with “cult” behavior. He was just asked to leave, and every since then he’s proven how right Doug Wilson was for wanting to get rid of him for being a nuisance and an emotional mess. Metzler has repeatedly called Christ Church a “cult.” But how has Metzler shown the Kirk to be a cult? He hasn’t. In fact his descriptions of Pastor Wilson and Christ Church only show that they’re not a cult. Cults don’t just ask you to leave when you make a nuisance of yourself. They punish you.
I have not lived in Moscow for some time (I attended the University from 1980 to 1982). I chose to leave Moscow primarily because of the absurd cultural environment being encouraged by Doug Wilson and his brother. I was an art student on full scholarship and both Wilson brothers were enrolled in the art program. I was not of their faith (I am a Christian) but they were constantly trying to bait me into conflict, under the guise of love, until it became so intolerable that I transferred, at great sacrifice, to another school.
I am not surprised that Doug Wilson has spun off into the religious ozone. When I was in school he was always ranting on about biblical exegesis or some other half understood but completely irrelevant philosophical notion.
I never confronted Doug with his intolerance. I simply left town. What prompted my belated commentary was a recent article in the Argonaut that mentioned that Doug attended a meeting designed to address diversity and tolerance. The meeting was prompted by a student who was contemplating leaving the University because of its intolerance, a situation that Doug Wilson probably can not imagine.
I wanted to assure the citizens of Moscow that it can and does happen.
Brad Teare
Brad, I’m amazed to hear that just one man could run you off campus, but the scenario you describe is possible, “constantly trying to bait me into conflict, under the guise of love.” There are men whose personalities are so despicable, so obnoxious, so odious, so detestable, so repugnant, that to remain in their loathsome presence even one more day becomes absolutely unbearable.
Well there is a God in heaven, and he answers prayer! Michael Metzler is finally leaving Moscow, ID and he’s moving to sunny Southern California. Metzler says,
“Well, some dreams do come true. We will soon be moving from this place to paradise.”
Michael, hearing this is a dream come true for many here in Moscow too! Let’s pray your move happens sooner than later, like tomorrow if possible.
I don’t know if it will still be “paradise” after you get there, but your move from here will sure help to make it a paradise here.
Hi. It has been a couple months since I searched for this interesting site. It certainly continues to be an honor to have an entire web site dedicated to discussing my own Pooh’s Think site (www.poohsthink.com); although, it appears to be a magnet for one or a handful of anonymous person(s) to spread serious libel. Shucks!
This is apparently not a highly trafficked site. But for those who do find it, I wanted to point out one fact that I personally find interesting: Doug Farris (commenting above) is an old friend of mine and a ‘kirker’. He is well known in the local community here for his frequent defenses of his pastor, Douglas Wilson. Farris would know that my business and full-time schooling here the last year have been a success, and that I am selling these items since I have been planning to leave Moscow for over a year now — and I’m not sure I would advertise to the international community my selling of these items if this was a sign of my own economic failure! Thankfully, it is typically not hard to find humor in the midst of my public investigations : -) But Farris typically says things about me publicly that he knows are not true. I have been encouraging him to stop this for over a year, but nothing I say appears to limit his efforts.
Sadly, this seems somewhat true for a good majority of those writing anonymously here as well. I would have found a place to discuss issues surrounding the controversy swirling in my small town or rational challenges to some of my own analysis to be a delight — as I have done elsewhere. But instead, folks typically just show up here and say things that they themselves seem to know not to be true and do not even give the appearance of taking their own words seriously. Oh, well. This was set up to be a bit of an attack web site against me I guess; so I shouldn’t complain all that much. But for an attack web site, I must say that the moderator does keep things fairly clean. And for that I do say ‘thank you’. However, until the content of the posting on this thread improves, I will only take a peak here every now and then. If the discussion gets better, somebody send me an email to let me know. I will not be shy if I think there is room for productive dialog.
I also want to put in a good word about many members of Christ Church. There have been many ‘kirkers’ who have been unwilling to follow the underground agenda of shunning and hurting me and my family. In fact, I was at what was predominately a Kirk gathering just a couple days ago and I enjoyed speaking to more than one kirker. Many ladies have remained kind to my wife as well; Heather Wilson, Nate Wilson’s wife (Nate is Wilson’s son and instructor at NSA), has been one of the kindest. Thus, I did not want folks to get the impression from Farris’ note and the last comment here from Stacy that this is the norm. It isn’t. This is not to say that everything is rational and peachy either. But the frightening tone of Stacy’s praise to God that me, my wife, and my four children move far away from Moscow, Idaho is something I have never experienced from Christ Church (I even consider one Grayfriar student still a good friend). The real sociological situation here is far more rich and complex — and fascinating — than what Farris and Stacy imply.
And FYI: the real Pooh’s Think is currently under construction. I’m hoping I can have comments up, but I hope to do something like password protect the historical record of my dealings with Doug Wilson, and leave it only for those that convince me of having intentions of pursuing truth and handling material in a judicial fashion. But we’ll see. Now that the ‘real time’ record has for the most part ceased, I think that this is a natural change. If anyone thinks this would be a bad idea, please send me a note to me email. I do hope to get to ‘the story’ of the Wood in the future; but I’m afraid it will not be as dramatic as my critics might hope.
Unless I get an email from someone, I guess I’ll say hello in another couple of months. Until then, please take a look at Harvard Law’s ‘The Situationist’. It is simply top notch.
Thank you much
Michael Metzler
metzler@moscow.com
509.330.1503
Thanks for bringing up your wife Michael, and her good relations with Heather and some other Kirk ladies. Doesn’t that say anything to you? Doesn’t it say that the Kirk isn’t a cult? You’ve attacked Christ Church many times Michael and called the Kirk a cult and Doug Wilson a cultmaster. If the Kirk were a cult then the Kirk would be shunning you AND your wife. Your wife is smart enough to not call Christ Church a cult. She’s a nice lady, which is why she still has some friends. Your a different case. Don’t think that just because you “enjoyed speaking to more than one kirker” that any of us enjoy speaking with you. Some of us can still tolerate you Michael, but just a few, and just barely.
So you come here and make a mockary of the “productive dialogue” you claim to be the great defender of? You come here and try and convince us that you’ve got a bunch of friends left in the Kirk? Come on Michael! Snap out of your extreme denial! As Christians we’re called to pray for and love those who hate us (that be you), but that doesn’t mean we have to like you or be your friend. After all your backstabbing against anyone who doesn’t want to whip on Doug Wilson with you, who in their right mind would ever trust you enough to want to be your friend? Face it Michael. The ONLY friends you’ve got left are your fellow Doug Wilson haters. Now theres the basis of a great friendship. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” That doesn’t make for enduring friendships.
“Oh, well. This was set up to be a bit of an attack web site against me I guess; so I shouldn’t complain all that much.” Oh, and your site was set up as a what? As a Doug Wilson attack site! Michael you KNOW this is just another one of your lies. You know that the ONLY reason this mirror site was set up was because you won’t take comments on your own blog. You can live in denial about it but I believe what the webmaster says about it. He/she has always seemed like a very fair minded person, a whole lot more fair minded than you have ever been. You use to take comments Michael but you didn’t want anyone to be able to ask you embarasing questions like “Why did you lie to everyone and say ‘I’m one of the most nonanonymous people on the internet?’ but then you got busted for posting anonymously. Instead of just confessing you lied and told some goofy half baked story and lied some more. Your a hypocrite Michael and your still being a hypocrite. Your still whining about “one or a handful of anonymous person(s).” You gave up your right a long time ago to ever complain about anyone else posting anonymously. Keep saying stuff like that Michael. Your only proving what a hypocrite you are.
So then you whined to this webmaster and threatened him for copying your articles on this blog. So what’s left to say about you Michael? Your a liar and a coward that can’t stand being accountable to the same standards that you try and hold Doug Wilson accountable. You’re still lying to. You’ve been telling us all for months and months that you were going to open your comments soon. Even if you ever do open your comments its all by your arbitrary rules of “pursuing truth and handling material in a judicial fashion.” Yeah right, and your such a virtuous source of whats judicial! You’ve been real judicial about how you’ve written about Doug Wilson? Sure. Pastor Wilson has got his faults but your articles have been anything but judicial. You’re so “judicial” that you don’t let anyone cross examine you on your blog for your slanders against Pastor Wilson? Sure. That’s judicial according to Michael Metzler! Don’t pontificate to us Michael about leaving “room for productive dialog” when you’ve done nothing but made a mockary of productive dialogue.
So Michael, how soon will you be moving? Is there anything we can do to help encourage you to leave sooner?
It has been some time since I read this but low and behold Mike still can’t keep his mouth closed in public…
“Doug Farris (commenting above) is an old friend of mine and a ‘kirker’….”
I don’t believe that I would consider me to be “an old friend” of yours. I came over to fix a few things on your trailer but I would not consider that the basis of a stellar friendship.
“Farris would know that my business and full-time schooling here the last year have been a success,…”
How would I know if your business or your schooling were successful? I do not get a weekly update to your daily habits. In addition, do you consider the measurement of your success by the relatively low number of complaints about your building practices? I guess if you only screw a client once or twice, that would be a successful business relationship.
“But Farris typically says things about me publicly that he knows are not true.” Like the fact of you being a coward and a liar.
I still feel sorry for your wife and kids.
“I’m hoping I can have comments up, but I hope to do something like password protect the historical record of my dealings with Doug Wilson, and leave it only for those that convince me of having intentions of pursuing truth and handling material in a judicial fashion.”
Are you telling us you’re going to hide all your Doug Wilson bashing articles and the only people that can see them will have to be approved by you? Are you saying that you want to continue bashing Doug Wilson but you just want to be able to do it in secret and in the company of your fellow Doug Wilson bashers?
You keep talking about opening up comments on your blog, but what good is that when the only people who can see you slander Doug Wilson have to get your permission? You call that “judicial”? I call that cowardice.
Metzler’s blog has been “under construction” for days. Methinks Michael is hoping to make some of his outrageous statements about another Doug disappear without anyone’s notice. The word on the street is that Doug Phillips has threatened legal action against Metzler for, among other things, comparing him to Adolph Hitler. Here’s just one example:
“However, even if I was to think that Phillips was generally a good guy and his church a pleasant enough environment, I would still have full motivation to expose what his ideology will likely produce down stream. Was Hitler a dangerous man? Sure. But Hitler’s direct and immediate influence was fairly mild compared to what the spreading of his ethos and ideology was able to produce. And folks, Doug Phillips’ teaching on women, home, culture, and church is not really all that far from this kind of threat. It is dishonest, counter-civilization propaganda. It is a seductive drug that gives you a controllable world of ignorant bliss, hierarchy, and dehumanizing beauty (not to mention American apple pie served by white girls in pretty fluffy dresses). But the drug only creates its illusions for so long; in the end it gives us moral, cultural, educational, and political regress. Fluffy dresses where fine back when fluffy dresses were just dresses. But in today’s world, they are not just dresses. Phillips’ teaches a seductive tail; given the kind of moral and legal progress we have had, and given what the real world is like today, this seductive tail only gives progress superficially, in small short lived cloisters that will ultimately only speed up relativistic, postmodern back lashes to all kinds of manly metanarratives.?”
Posted by Michael Metzler on Monday, December 4, 2006, at 5:44 pm.
Metzler’s bad spelling makes for good humor. “Seductive tail” indeed.
Is Metzler’s move motivated by Doug Phillips’ legal threats?
I came here from a comment at http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2007/05/08/the-doug-phillips-school-of-logical-fallacies
Someone please fill me in. I’m not getting it. Who is Michael Metzler and why is he making these comparisons of Doug Phillips to Hitler? Is Doug Phillips a Neo Nazi? If he’s not a Neo Nazi didn’t this Metzler guy know that Phillips is a lawyer? Is Metzler just stupid? Doesn’t he know why Phillips uses that “Esq.” after his name? Didn’t he understand it’s stupid to slander a lawyer? Or maybe Metzler thought it wasn’t slander? Maybe Phillips really is a Neo Nazi? I can’t remember where I saw it but there are a couple articles on another blog that implies that Doug Phillips is a racist. But even if he is a racist that doesn’t make him a Nazi. I’ve got some cousins that are racists. My uncle was even in the KKK years ago. He still kind of thinks that way. It’s embarrassing to me, but unfortunately a lot of people around here (southern GA) have some racist leanings. But they’re not Neo Nazis. That stuff wouldn’t fly here. Just because someone is a racist that doesn’t mean they’re a Neo Nazi. Does anyone know if Phillips is a Neo Nazi? If he is than Metzler wouldn’t have anything to worry about. You can’t slander someone with the truth. But if Phillips isn’t a Neo Nazi than Metzler’s probably in big trouble. I’d still like to understand more about this Metzler guy. Someone please fill me in. Any links would be appreciated.
Mr. Sanborne,
In order to know more about “this Metzler guy” just look up the words “bitterness, coward and jealous” in any dictonary. That will sum it up pretty well!
Add “Judas” to that list.
Gabe, Michael Metzler is a self-absorbed whiny malcontent and narcissist who loves playing the victim. Metzler has been at war with Pastor Doug Wilson for many moons. Wilson pastors Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. Many Kirkers are thrilled that he’s not welcome at our church anymore. Many residents of Moscow will be thrilled when he finally moves away.
“Metzler’s blog has been “under construction” for days. Methinks Michael is hoping to make some of his outrageous statements about another Doug disappear without anyone’s notice. The word on the street is that Doug Phillips has threatened legal action against Metzler for, among other things, comparing him to Adolph Hitler.”
Interesting. That would explain a lot. We’ll just have to see how this plays out. Every day that Michael’s blog stays “under construction” makes me more suspicious of what trickery he’s up to.
Here’s the link to Michael’s “Doug Phillips Is An Adolph Hitler” article, http://poohsthink.com/?p=1010
If Pooh’s Think ever does come back it’ll be fun to see if Michael’s “let’s slander an attorney” articles have disappeared.
Gabe,
The worst thing Michael did was question Doug Wilson. As you can see from some of the responses, you shouldn’t ever cross The Kirk. If all he did was question Mr. Wilson on his federal vision beliefs, going to bat for child molesters, or providing a home for petty church tyrants he would’ve faded away into philosophical oblivion.
But he decided to engage Doug Wilson on Wilson’s blog under verious pen names. When called out on this he remaned silent. Some people, including myself, took this to mean that Doug was just being paraniod. I fell for Michaels shannannigins. Once he had been caught by Doug he came up with some caccamani story about trying to prove a point regarding Doug’s character. I don’t believe anyone fell for it that time.
But alas he still couldn’t keep his mouth shut. He went after Doug Philips, comparing his theology to Hitler THEN!!! and it’s a big then. He started working behind the scenes to add even more slander upon the Epsteins through private emails and such. He started linking Matt Chanceys website along with the Still Fed Up Gang. He never came right out and said that he endorsed these sites but I don’t see what other conclusion you can draw. Of course Michael will probably deny that he ever endorsed Matt Chancey or SFUG and he’d be right. He’d probably say that it was for information purposes only……But clearly he was siding with Doug Philips. Given his blog history regarding Doug Wilson it seemed rather odd that Michael would side with Doug Philips and it left alot of people scratching their heads.
I can’t think of why he did this. The only reason I can come up with is a comment he left on http://www.ministrywatchman.com awhile back. He attacked Jen Epstein’s character and was severly rebuked by Charles Fischer. Charles had been taken to task by the rest of the watchmen team and apologized to Michael for what he said. Michael though couldn’t forgive Charles and he’s, Michael I mean, been throwing spit wads at Jen Epstein ever since…….For the last couple months though he’s been silent about all of this, probably hoping against all odds that it will go away. Especially since Doug Phillips’ ties to the neo-confederate movement, hyper-patriarchy, and theonomy have been exposed to the public at large.
This is all recalled from memory so please forgive any holes and especially spelling mistakes. As for links…Well Jen Epstein has the most information regarding Doug Phillips, just check out her site. As for Michaels blog……….just wait and see. His blog has dissappeared and when it comes back you might need a password to access old articles.
Hope this helped
Jonathan
Thanks Jonathan for some backround on this. I’ve also been searching around on my own to try and sort this out. I’m interested because I like Doug Wilson’s books. Or at least the few I’ve read. I don’t know if Doug Phillips has written anything, but I heard him at a conference once. It was a little spooky. Sort of reminded me of my Bill Gothard days. No thanks!
“But clearly he was siding with Doug Philips. Given his blog history regarding Doug Wilson it seemed rather odd that Michael would side with Doug Philips and it left alot of people scratching their heads.” Yup, it’s really odd. I’m scratching. Scratching hard. This is all so confusing. It doesn’t seem logical.
By searching through the Google cache on Pooh’s Think I was able to find a bunch of articles where Metzler is extremely critical of Doug Phillips. Than all of a sudden last December he posts a “I Was Wrong About Doug Phillips” article. He says he was wrong because Phillips posted a “sincere and honest rebuttal” to a Ministry Watchman article. I don’t see how what Phillips posted on the Boerne Christian Assembly web site is a “rebuttal.” A “denial” yes. “Rebuttal” no. Metzler needs a dictionary.
Why would Metzler spend months writing all those nasty things about Doug Phillips and than suddenly do a 180? So Metzler 180ed because Phillips threatened to sue him for comparing him to Hitler? Than to get into Phillips good graces he flip flopped and sucked up to Phillips and attacked Ministry Watchman and the Epsteins? Am I getting this story right?
“Why would Metzler spend months writing all those nasty things about Doug Phillips and than suddenly do a 180?”
That’s the million dollar question. One that he’ll probably never answer.
“So Metzler 180ed because Phillips threatened to sue him for comparing him to Hitler?”
This hasn’t been verified, infact on this site is the first time i’ve heard of it. I wouldn’t put it past Doug Phillips to play like that, he’s done it in the past. Just look into “Raising the Allasaur (SP)”. But I would also be suspicous of something coming out of The Kirk. The Kirk tends to throw the word “Judas” around too much for my liking.
“Than to get into Phillips good graces he flip flopped and sucked up to Phillips and attacked Ministry Watchman and the Epsteins? Am I getting this story right?”
If indeed the threat of the lawsuit is true, then yes you’re getting the story right. It’s hard to say though, Micheal never gave a reason for the turn.
The problem now for Micheal, is that by siding with DP he has by default declared the trial of the Epstiens as valid. A trial without due process and this is one of the things he hit DW on. I take from his writings that when he was finally chased out of Christ Church it was done without a trial.
Accountability was another issue MM hit DW on. Just look at RC jr. and what happened at Christ Our King Church in Santa Cruz as examples. So why would MM harp on accountability then side with DP, who’s accountable to no one? This glaring double standard is just one of the things MM is hiding from. He’s been ignoring it for the last several months and this was before his site when down.
Another one I hate to bring up is kinism. He tried to link watchman.com with kinism but it didn’t work. Then when links between Doug Phillips and Neo-confederacy started coming to light MM all but ignored it. Just look at his letter at the top of this page……
On a personal note Gabe, be very careful with Doug Wilsons teachings. I’ve seen several people lead into a romanist understanding of the sacraments because of what DW teaches. Donning teflon suit now.
Jonathan
“Yup, it’s really odd. I’m scratching. Scratching hard. This is all so confusing. It doesn’t seem logical.” Gabe, when it comes to Michael Metzler don’t ever expect it to be logical. Metzler is totally illogical, and then some. He’s also a sociopath. Metzler’s sociopathy drives him to revile anyone who doesn’t agree with him about any subject. It’s not possible to have a civil disagreement with Metzler. Metzler is THE ultimate authority on any subject of his choosing and disagreeing with him is not an option. You either agree with him or it’s war. Did Metzler finally met his match with Doug Phillips? Too bad something like that didn’t happen years ago.
Dear “one more ex-friend”,
I would have to agree with you about Michael being an expert in any field. He certianly was an expert general contractor. He had it all figured out and could tell you just the way it had to be from his vast experience. And that was just on his first house project.
Pretty good for a painter!
Gabe, even though Metzler took his site down you can still find his articles in Google cache. Search in Google for example for “Doug Phillip site:poohsthink.com” [no quote marks] and hit “cache” and you’ll pull up his articles where he mentions Doug Phillips in.
“The problem now for Micheal, is that by siding with DP he has by default declared the trial of the Epstiens as valid. A trial without due process and this is one of the things he hit DW on. I take from his writings that when he was finally chased out of Christ Church it was done without a trial.
“Accountability was another issue MM hit DW on. Just look at RC jr. and what happened at Christ Our King Church in Santa Cruz as examples. So why would MM harp on accountability then side with DP, who’s accountable to no one? This glaring double standard is just one of the things MM is hiding from. He’s been ignoring it for the last several months and this was before his site when down.”
This whole mess is confusing to me too. Double standards everywhere. Metzler wrote many articles about the injustices and pastoral abuses of Doug Wilson. I don’t see it myself, but if he really believes it why was he so quick to condemn the Epsteins? I’m not sure what to make over the Epstein/Phillips caper, but they seem to have made a much stronger case for pastoral abuse than Metzler ever made against Doug Wilson. Why would Metzler attack the Epsteins and defend a guy like Phillips who’s not accountable to anyone? Doug Wilson has some real ordained elders and his church is in a real denomination (the CREC, the same one my church is in) with some elders who would make him accountable if they thought he was doing something bad. Who’s Doug Phillips accountable to? The Epsteins say nobody.
Why would Metzler all of a sudden start singing the praises of Doug Phillips right after he’d been attacking him for weeks and even comparing him to Hitler? Very strange. The theory about Phillips threatening to sue him is the only thing that makes sense.
So Poohs Think has been “under Construction” for over two weeks now? Very fishy. If Poohs Think ever comes back the first thing Metzler needs to do is make an apology. He’s cause a lot of trouble.
“Michael though couldn’t forgive Charles and he’s, Michael I mean, been throwing spit wads at Jen Epstein ever since.”
That’s Michael! That sums him up! Michael the juvenile spit wad throwing child. Michael the unforgiving. Michael the accuser. Michael the fault finder. Michael the grudge bearer. Bitter Michael. Vengeful Michael. Hateful Michael. Rebellious Michael. Slanderous Michael.
I feel sorry for Charles Fischer and the Epsteins. I don’t have to know them to feel sorry for them. Anyone who’s on the receiving end of Michael’s wrath has got my sympathy. Even if they’re wrong they’ve got my sympathy. Even if Doug Phillips is wrong he’s got my sympathy. No one deserves to be on the receiving end of Michael’s hateful bitter attacks. My pastor’s been on the receiving end of it for way too long. It needs to be stopped. Michael needs to be stopped cold. He and his Poohstink needs to go away forever. Even if Poohstink stays “under construction” permanently it’s still not enough. His other Doug Wilson attack sites like cultists.blogspot.com and dougsplotch.com need to go under construction forever too.
I hope that Doug Phillips sues Michael for everything he’s worth. It’s probably the only way to get him to stop his hate campaigns of smearing people.
I’v never been an actual “friend” of Michael’s, and thank God for that, but I knew him from the kirk. If I would’v ever been a friend of Michael’s I’d be commenting as a “former” friend, because that’s all that Michael’s got left. God protected me from becoming friends with him. Something about Michael really creeped me out. So I kept my distance. Michael is so quick to turn on people, and if we’d become friends I’m sure he would’v turned on me too, especially over his getting booted from the kirk. The only thing Pastor Wilson did wrong was not showing Michael to the door sooner.
Just disagree with Michael over the smallest thing and he’s your enemy for life. No surprise he’s got so many former friends posting comments here. When it comes to personal relations Michael is a demolitions expert and a professional bridge burner.
I still remember when he turned on Kevin D. Johnson. Michael repeatedly praised Johnson, but only because Johnson had been critical of some things Doug Wilson had said on his blog. But then when Johnson later complimented Doug about some other issue, Michael instantly turned against Johnson and attacked him. http://www.reformedcatholicism.com/?p=845
Michael isn’t loyal to anyone in the world other than Michael. He’ll stab his friends in the back in a heartbeat, and he’ll do it publicly, just to drive the blade in as deep as possible. Someone here called Michael a Judas. He is.
Dear Acquaintance,
I wouldn’t call Michael a Judas. He is more like an infant cry baby. If he was a Judas at least he would have had remorse by now and went of to hang himself out of duty. Mikey never ever had a sense of duty.
I would be more afraid of what will happen to his wife and children. Bitterness has a way of effecting and infecting and defiling many.
Pray for his the family he is destroying!
Three weeks and counting of Poop Think “Under Construction.”
Does anyone know if Michael Metzler has moved yet? Or is he still stalking Doug Wilson in Moscow?
Here’s some choice quotes from a Michael Metzler article he posted September 20, 2006. Just from the title alone I can see why Doug Phillips threatened to sue him.
Is Doug Phillips a Corrupt Misogynist?
“Are there any bigger fish to catch? I have a hunch about one candidate: Doug Phillips. He is big, he is wealthy, he teaches heretical patriarchical views, and he despises the church for the purpose of marketing his own business… A friend of mine knew of my concerns about Phillips and so he sent me a tape of Phillips lecture that he had enjoyed to get my input. The teaching within it was horrifying. Phillips disparages the church, teaches about the primacy of the family cult where the woman must remain in her father’s house to serve her father lest she be raped in judgment. No joke… Thus, it is not hard to get the intended psychological effect for the listener: Phillips and his catalog is the source of truth and life, not the church… I think an argument really can be made that Phillips is acting wrongly: implicitly denying the role of a biblical church, giving the appearance of ‘teaching for money’ when broadly construed, and even rejecting the gospel.”
Speaking of Metzler articles that would have really ticked off a guy like Doug Phillips big time, check out this one. Metzler very selectively quotes from another blog article, emphasizing how Vision Forum suffered “economic stress” because of some blog articles.
More Reporting On Doug Phillip’s Clamping Down
Posted By Michael Metzler On 7th October 2006 @ 18:21
“A friend just sent me a couple links on Doug Phillips and Vision Forum. One site reports Vision Forum’s recent response to public criticism, which you can see [1] here. Here is an excerpt:
“…The critics of Vision Forum are not secularists, liberal Christians, nor even conservative Christians. The critics are fundamentalist Baptists who are concerned about the harsh reconstructionist ideas that appear to be at the theological center of Vision Forum. …These Baptists may not have a sizable budget like Vision Forum, but they are resourceful enough to spread their ideas through websites and blogs. They began their criticism over a year ago, but only now has Vision Forum decided to respond. Apparently they are feeling some economic stress. …an organization is much more sensitive to criticism from within their own cultural and theological circles than from outside these circles. Vision Forum is apparently having a meltdown because they are very anxious they may not be able to continue selling their products to millions of fundamentalist Baptists in the US.”
That kind of selective quoting makes it obvious that Metzler was smiling over Vision Forum taking it in the shorts over the blogging about Vision Forum on http://sharperiron.org and http://emethaletheia.blogspot.com It doesn’t seem very smart for Metzler to be gloating publicly over the financial losses of a company that’s owned by a lawyer.
“In my own experience, it seems that those who lack the emotional grounding for good, stable moral decisions are those more likely to seek out moral theories for guidance (or else religious maxim).”
Michael Metzler
Michael Needs A Lawsuit says, “Even if Poohstink stays “under construction” permanently it’s still not enough. His other Doug Wilson attack sites like cultists.blogspot.com and dougsplotch.com need to go under construction forever too.”
Michael probably does need a lawsuit, but maybe not for Dougsplotch. He may not have enough computer savvy to put up a web site with that many gizmos all on his own. Probably though Michael played a part in it. Maybe it was a team effort. Does anyone know who’s responsible for Dougsplotch? Are his initials CN?
Dougsplotch is hosted by Charlie Nolan so that would be a yes to the initials CN!
Charlie posts from time to time elsewhere under other bogus names. I guess the meds need to be up-ed.
Thanks. That confirms the comment I saw on “Right Mind” at http://right-mind.us/blogs/blog_0/archive/2005/09/26/36840.aspx that credits Charlie Nolan (of Charles Nolan Publishers) as the owner of dougsplotch.com. This is very disturbing news to me because I own some of his books. Obviously I won’t be ordering any more. I won’t patronize such a man, even if he is on meds (was that just a joke or were you serious?).
# re: Charlie Nolan operating a business?
I think not. It was because he was associated with Christ Church that he had any books sold at all. But then he hasn’t published any thing new since his cowardice was reviled.
I wouldn’t say he is publishing from his home. He’s just playing like he’s important by having two web sites http://charlesnolanpublishers.com and http://dougsplotch.com.
You go Charlie!
Tuesday, September 27, 2005 8:02 AM by Heirdoug
Around here it’s not much of a secret that Dougsplotch is Charlie Nolan’s site. What no one seems to know for sure is how much of a role does Metzler play in Dougsplotch? My guess is Metzler is partners with Nolan, not just in Dougsplotch, but Cultists In Hats and some other attack blogs that are probably theirs too.
Someone earlier said that Metzler is obsessed with Doug Wilson. Obsessed, bitter, hostile, hateful, vengeful, etc. etc. etc. All true, which is why he and Nolan are pals. Birds of a feather. Their friendship comes entirely from their mutual hatred of Doug Wilson. When their Wilson-hatred runs its course they’ll turn on each other. They’re both backstabbers so it’s inevitable.
Nolan left Christ Church before Metzler did. When Metzler later left they teamed up and they’ve been attacking Doug Wilson and the Kirk ever since. They became comrades in arms, or comrades in blogs. Metzler bravely attacks under his own name, at least when he’s not being anonymous, which means he’s only half a coward. Nolan is 100% coward.
Since Metzler probably has a lot to do with Dougsplotch, maybe the two Dougs can team up and sue Metzler and Nolan at the same time?
Someone said something about Michael Metzler needs a dictionary. You’re right about that. Metzler throws around a lot of terms like he knows what they mean. Either he doesn’t know at all because he’s an ignoramus (real easy to believe that one), or he’s a liar (also very true), or both.
For one thing he needs to look up the definition of “libel.” “Libel” is one of the most overused words in Metzler’s creative vocabulary. Just look at how many times and how many people he’s accused of “libel.” He’s done it on his blog, and dozens of other blogs, where he posts comments under his name and under who knows how many aliases.
Doug Wilson
All Christ Church Elders
Frank Turk (pyromaniacs.com)
Kevin D. Johnson (reformedcatholicism.com)
Tim Challies (challies.com)
Dale Courtney
Ligonier Ministries
Mark and Jennifer Epstein
Charles Fisher
Ministry Watchman
Doug Farris
The webmaster of this blog
Anyone who disagrees with Metzler, even over the most minor thing, is guilty of “libel.” No one has ever libeled Metzler, but Metzler has libeled several people. It doesn’t get any more libelous than to compare someone to Hitler, and it doesn’t get any stupider than to libel a lawyer.
Dear Michael Needs A Lawsuit,
You may get your wish. It looks like a couple of home owners here in Moscow are planning just that.
Sloppy Theology, sloppy workmanship!
Better that he stick to painting!
“It looks like a couple of home owners here in Moscow are planning just that.”
In the case of his blog, he can just take it down and hide the evidence. Too bad for Michael he can’t just take down a house the same way. It’s not too easy to hide that kind of damning evidence. Now it’s too obvious why he’s “moving.”
Tip for Michael: Don’t move to Southern Calif. They have a lot of those pesky building codes, and you have to be bonded and have liability insurance, and there are lawyers all over the place that love suing scam artists. In other words you actually do have to know how to build a house before you build one. Try some place like Nebraska instead. Or maybe Nigeria.
“Hail Dabney, prophet of the South, our great apologist… And so with joy we doff our hats and shout from every mouth: Hail Dabney, wise apologist, defender of the South!”
I’ve read Dabney’s “A Defense Of Virginia And The South.” It’s the most racist book I’ve ever read in my life. Anybody who’s read Dabney knows that Dabney was the South’s most unabashed “defender” and apologist for perpetual Black slavery. So at the very least Doug Phillips is a neo-Confederate racist. What’s scary about all this is that Doug Phillips has such a large following among Christian home school families.
What does that make Michael Metzler for defending Doug Phillips and for attacking a family with an obvious Jewish name (“Epstein”)?
Karen,
It makes him a kinist.
But this shows us the type of man he is. He will attack Doug Wilson for his postion on southern slavery and at the same time side with the likes of Matt Chancey, Doug Phillips, and the Still Fed Up Gang. All of which are pro souther, neo-confederate, revisionists……
I think it was Stacy that said Micheal would ignore Doug Phillips racism. Stacy was right.
Jonathan
“It makes him a kinist.”
Tip for Michael: Don’t move to Southern Calif. Bad choice for a Kinist. Too many Blacks and Latinos. Also, forget my suggestion about Nigeria. Too many Africans.
Nebraska is still a good option. Mostly Whites there.
I just read a couple of comments on Jen Epstein’s blog the behavioral traits of a narcissist, or who suffers from NPD or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. The person who posted the comments is saying that it applies to Doug Phillips. What they’re also saying is that there’s no treatment or known cure for NPD. Apparently the only thing you can do is just stay as far away as you can from an NPD. So in other words there’s no hope for Doug Phillips.
My question is, might this also apply Michael Metzler? Is Mr. Metzler an NPD? Some of the comments above lead me to believe that Mr. Metzler might be NPD. If that’s true then there’s probably no hope for him and the best thing for people to do is to stay far, far away.
Here’s the comment. It’s long but worth the read:
The following link is perhaps the best compilation of NPD traits I have ever seen. This site actually seems to be a complete retelling of the whole experience that Jen and her husband had with Doug, including being banished from his presence and Doug’s tendency glorify and pretend to live in the grander, more adventerous past. It is if the writer were there … but what they have actually written is really just an explanation of a classic case of Narcissism. This is scarily accurate. PLEASE read this and then comment.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html
Excerpts:
Almost everyone has some narcissistic traits, but being conceited, argumentative, or selfish sometimes (or even all the time) doesn’t amount to a personality disorder. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a long-term pattern of abnormal thinking, feeling, and behavior in many different situations. The traits on this page will seem peculiar or disturbing when someone acts this way — i.e., you will know that something is not right, and contact with narcissists may make you feel bad about yourself. It’s not unusual for narcissists to be outstanding in their field of work. But these are the successful people who have a history of alienating colleagues, co-workers, employees, students, clients, and customers — people go away mad or sad after close contact with narcissists.
… Narcissicism is a personality disorder and that means that narcissists’ personalities aren’t organized in a way that makes sense to most people … Interaction with narcissists is confusing, even bewildering — their reasons for what they do are not the same as normal reasons. In fact, treating them like normal people (e.g., appealing to their better nature, as in “Please have a heart,” or giving them the chance to apologize and make amends) will make matters worse with a narcissist.
amoral/conscienceless
authoritarian
care only about appearances
contemptuous
critical of others
cruel
disappointing gift-givers
don’t recognize own feelings
envious and competitive
feel entitled
flirtatious or seductive
grandiose
hard to have a good time with
hate to live alone
hyper-sensitive to criticism
impulsive
lack sense of humor
naive
passive
pessimistic
religious
secretive
self-contradictory
stingy
strange work habits
unusual eating habits
weird sense of time
… The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). … They will contradict FACTS. They will lie to you about things that you did together. They will misquote you to yourself. If you disagree with them, they’ll say you’re lying, making stuff up, or are crazy. [At this point, if you’re like me, you sort of panic and want to talk to anyone who will listen about what is going on: this is a healthy reaction; it’s a reality check (”who’s the crazy one here?”); that you’re confused by the narcissist’s contrariness, that you turn to another person to help you keep your bearings, that you know something is seriously wrong and worry that it might be you are all signs that you are not a narcissist].
… the surest way I know of to get a crushing blow to your heart is to tell a narcissist you love her or him. They will respond with a nasty power move, such as telling you to do things entirely their way or else be banished from them for ever.
…If you’re like me, you get into disputes with narcissists over their casual dishonesty and cruelty to other people. Trying to reform narcissists by reasoning with them or by appealing to their better nature is about as effective as spitting in the ocean. What you see is what you get: they have no better nature. The fundamental problem here is that narcissists lack empathy.
… narcissists can’t judge what will affect them personally and seem never to learn that when they cause trouble they will get trouble back. They won’t take other people’s feelings into consideration and so they overlook the fact that other people will react with feeling when abused or exploited and that most people get really (angry about) being lied to or lied about.
… Narcissists lack a mature conscience and seem to be restrained only by fear of being punished or of damaging their reputations —
…Their moral intelligence is about at the level of a bright five- or six-year-old; the only rules they recognize are things that have been specifically required, permitted, prohibited, or disapproved of by authority figures they know personally.
…Anyhow, narcissists can’t be counted on not to do something just because it’s wrong, illegal, or will hurt someone, as long as they think that they can get away with it or that you can’t stop them or punish them (i.e., they don’t care what you think unless they’re afraid of you).
… Narcissists are envious and competitive in ways that are hard to understand. … They are constantly comparing themselves (and whatever they feel belongs to them, such as their children and furniture) to other people. Narcissists feel that, unless they are better than anyone else, they are worse than everybody in the whole world.
…Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people’s feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life.
… Narcissists are (a) extremely sensitive to personal criticism and (b) extremely critical of other people. They think that they must be seen as perfect or superior or infallible, next to god-like (if not actually divine, then sitting on the right hand of God) — or else they are worthless. There’s no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can’t tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, “Please don’t do that again — it hurts,” narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like “I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn’t hurt you and you are lying about it now…” —
… narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they’re paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw.
— narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then — well, it’s kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: “There. Now I feel better. Where were we?” They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, “You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)” Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice.
… The other “punishment” narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence — this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, “Dear God! How do I get out of this?” The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while — a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) — the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won’t answer that call. They can’t see that they have a problem; it’s always somebody else who has the problem and needs to change.
… though narcissists hate their real selves, they don’t want to change — they want the world to change. And they criticize, gripe, and complain about almost everything and almost everyone almost all the time. There are usually a favored few whom narcissists regard as absolutely above reproach, even for egregious misconduct or actual crime, and about whom they won’t brook the slightest criticism. These are people the narcissists are terrified of, though they’ll tell you that what they feel is love and respect; apparently they don’t know the difference between fear and love. Narcissists just get worse and worse as they grow older; their parents and other authority figures that they’ve feared die off, and there’s less and less outside influence to keep them in check.
… Narcissists are hostile and ferocious in reaction
…They have pretty good reasons for their paranoia and cynicism, their sneakiness, evasiveness, prevarications.
… Narcissists are grandiose. They live in an artificial self invented from fantasies of absolute or perfect power, genius, beauty, etc.
…Narcissists don’t see themselves doing anything except being adored, and they don’t see anyone else doing anything except adoring them.
… Sometimes narcissistic fantasies are spectacularly grandiose — imagining themselves as Jesus or a saint or hero or deity depicted in art — but just as often the fantasies of narcissists are mediocre and vulgar, concocted from illustrations in popular magazines, sensational novels, comic books even.
… These artificial self fantasies are also static in time, going back unchanged to early adolescence or even to childhood; the narcissists’ self-images don’t change with time, so that you will find, for instance, female narcissists clinging to retro styles, still living the picture of the perfect woman of 1945 or 1965 as depicted in The Ladies’ Home Journal or Seventeen or Vogue of that era, and male narcissists still hung up on images of comic-book or ripping adventure heroes from their youth.
… Grandiosity can take various forms — a narcissistic woman may believe herself to be the very model of perfect womanhood, the standard by which all others are measured, and she will try to force her daughters to be just like her, she will not be able to cope with daughters who are taller or shorter than she is, fatter or thinner, who have bigger or smaller feet, breasts, teeth, who have different favorite colors than hers, etc.
… Narcissistic men can be infatuated with their own looks, too, (witness John Cheever, for instance; Almost Perfect) but are more likely than women to get hung up on their intelligence or the importance of their work — doesn’t matter what the work is, if he’s doing it, by definition it’s more important than anything you could possibly do. Narcissists I’ve known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God’s special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like — though, note, the narcissist’s God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you. [Many readers have questions about narcissism and religion. Here is an interesting article on the Web: “Narcissism Goes to Church: Encountering Evangelical Worship” by Monte Wilson.
… Narcissists have a weird sense of time. It’s more or less like they are not aware that the passage of time changes things, or maybe they just aren’t aware of time’s passing at all. Years can pass without touching narcissists. Narcissists often look, or think they look, significantly younger than they are; this youthful appearance is a point of pride to them, and some will emphasize it by either preserving the styles of their golden youth or following the styles of people the age they feel they “really” are. That their faces don’t show their chronological age is a good sign that they haven’t been living real lives with real life’s wear and tear on the looks of normal people. The narcissists’ years have passed without touching them.
… Narcissists are totally and inflexibly authoritarian. In other words, they are suck-ups. They want to be authority figures and, short of that, they want to be associated with authority figures. In their hearts, they know they can’t think well, have no judgment about what matters, are not connected with the world they inhabit, so they cling fanatically to the opinions of people they regard as authority figures — such as their parents, teachers, doctors, ministers.
…If they get in trouble over some or another opinion they’ve put forth, they’ll blame the source — “It was okay with Dr. Somebody,” “My father taught me that,” etc. If you’re still thinking of the narcissist as odd-but-normal, this shirking of responsibility will seem dishonest and craven — well, it is but it’s really an admission of weakness: they really mean it: they said what they said because someone they admire or fear said it and they’re trying to borrow that person’s strength.
… Narcissists feel entitled to whatever they can take. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation. Some narcissists spend extravagantly in order to impress people, keep up grandiose pretentions, or buy favorable treatment
…They can be pretty nice, even charming, flirtatious, and seductive, to strangers, and will flatter you shamelessly if they want something from you. When you attempt to get close to them in a normal way, they feel you are putting emotional pressure on them and they withdraw because you’re too demanding.
Here all this time I thought that Michael was a sociopath. This really helps to set the record straight.
I went and read that thread and the comments by WOW. Here’s something WOW said that I thought was valuable:
Michael STRONGLY meets at least five of the criteria for being NPD. In fact Michael meets at least eight, if not all nine. To answer your question Karen, yes, Michael is definitely NPD. Not a shadow of doubt about it. Michael isn’t just a moderate case of NPD. Michael is NPD on steroids. To borrow WOW’s statement, Michael Metzler “is a narcissist. Not in a hyperbolic sense, but in the true medical, mental health, hard wired personality sense.”
Karen, I just can’t thank you enough for this. This has been extremely helpful for me. I’ve been thinking for a long time that there might be some hope for Michael. I’ve been thinking that maybe if we all just pray hard enough and show Michael enough Christian love that he’d snap out of it. Now I know there isn’t any hope for him. Counseling can’t help him. Drugs can’t help him. Pastoral care can’t help him (some of us already witnessed first hand what happens when a narcissist gets the ear of a loving pastor). It’s better to come to terms with the truth than to continue having false hopes.
I don’t know Metzler but I do know that he’s got a really bad reputation. From what I’ve heard “narcissist” fits the bill. I know that Doug Wilson said that Michael Metzler is the emotional equivalent of a sucking chest wound.
Hey, Run Michael Run! That makes me upset to hear anyone knocking my native Nebraska like that. We’re not just some kind of dumping ground for the dregs and misfits of society. My State doesn’t want any racists and we don’t need narcisists either. Most of us are just humble salt of the earth farm folk.
Metzler needs to be with his OWN kind, and that’s NOT Nebraska. Someone please come up with a better recommendation. Can anyone think of anyplace where a narcissistic White supremacist would be welcome?
This seems to be a big dilemma. We should put our heads together and see if we can help get Michael pointed to someplace where he fits in. Some place where he’s not a big shockeroo to the neighbors.
It’s too bad Michael just can’t move somewhere else in Idaho. Or as some call it “White-aho”. More racists per capita than anyplace I’ve ever been. (My apologies to any native Idahoans, but you know it’s true).
So. Cal. might be a good place for him because there’s already so many narcisists there. (My apologies to any native So. Californians, but you know it’s true). Run Michael Run is right though about all the minorities, which in some places in So. Cal. aren’t even a “minority” anymore. Not a good place for a White Supremacist to live.
The obvious solution is some South Pacific Atoll, preferably uninhabited, or at least a very small population of Caucasians.
Praise the Lord for Google! I found a real nice one called Palmyra. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmyra_Atoll
There’s an abundance of coconuts, fish, shell fish, etc. Sounds like a paradise.
Another benefit is there’s no building codes, building permits, and not a single attorney to be able to sue him.
The population is only 4, and they’re all nature conservationists, and probably all Caucasian.
Michael would quickly “learn” the “importance” of getting along with the neighbors. This could be good therapy for an NPD, maybe even a real cure. It’s not like there’s any “law” or anything in a place like that. No police to turn to and file criminal complaints when Michael puts used condoms in their mailboxes. He’d figure out soon enough that he might just wind up “disappearing” if he keeps “narcissisting” the neighbors. Who knows? That might really straighten him out.
Does anyone know if Michael Metzler ever moved? Or is he still narcissisting Doug Wilson in Moscow?
Just in the last couple days Michael put his blog back online. According to his August 27 article he’s now in Cardiff By The Sea, California. For being “under construction” for almost five months it’s hard to tell that Pooh’s Think is in any way different. In fact he’s done so little “construction” on his blog that he hasn’t even bothered to update his contact info. In the sidebar of his blog it still says,
Did Michael forget that he moved?
And of course even though Michael has been promising everyone for many months that he would open up comments, he still hasn’t. When has Michael ever made a promise that he hasn’t broken? All I can say is, “Liar.”
Since Michael is such a liar it causes me to wonder if his “move” to Cardiff ever even happened at all. Is this just some kind of ruse to avoid all the people who want to sue him? Taking Pooh’s Think offline for almost five months under the guise of it being “under construction” was obviously nothing but a ruse. What’s to say that his “move” isn’t also a ruse?
Michael doesn’t have one shred of credibility left and only the most gullible would believe anything that Michael says.
Yeah! Metzler’s gone!
I don’t really care where Metzler the Kinist is. It doesn’t matter to me if he’s in Cardiff or hiding out somewhere else. Just as long as he’s gone from Moscow! May he never return.
I do feel sorry though for those poor people in Cardiff. They’ll soon figure out that Metzler the White Supremacist has messed up their nice little community as much as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl.
Good luck Michael! I mean that.
I’m sorry I called you a Judas before. I wouldn’t ever want someone like you for a friend, but “Judas” was probably excessive, even if it is what I’ve heard others call you.
Regardless of what a horrible nuisance you’ve made of yourself, we all need to be more sympathetic to your plight. I don’t know what it’s like being an NPD, but I’m sure it can’t be easy. Even though I don’t like you, and I especially don’t like what you’ve done, and all the damage you’ve caused, I’m trying hard to feel sorry for you. Your actions are consistent with a man who’s desperately crying out for help.
Just based on what little I know about you, and the things people have said about you, these statements fit you well. You are the “hypervigilant subtype as easily hurt, oversensitive and ashamed” and “the hypervigilant subtype, far from fending off devaluation, is obsessed with it, neutralising devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers.” Based on just what’s posted on your own blog that fits you to a T. You think the whole world is out to get you. You’re “hypervigilant” about anyone who might disagree with you in the least little thing. So you immediately attack them. You’re “obsessed with it.” Your self-image is frail and in tatters.
You have made a lot of enemies of former friends. I hope you don’t do that in sunny southern California too. I hope you realize that just moving away won’t fix anything. You need help. Please seek out some professional help Michael. Even if you don’t care about ever being able to maintain any friendships, you especially need to get help for the sake of your family. You’re hurting your wife and children. The Lord didn’t put them in your life to be your ego support system.
Please don’t make the mistake of thinking you can get help for this at another church. If you try and join another church before you’ve got this NPD thing beat you’ll just create another disaster, and the next thing we’ll all see is another year’s worth of your “pity poor Pooh” articles trying to convince the world that you’re the “victim” once again. Your expectations of being able to get help at Christ Church or from Doug Wilson were completely unrealistic. Your issues are way over the head of any pastor. Your kind of psychosis requires professional help. Some Christian group therapy would do you a lot of good.
Good luck Michael. Get well.
Hello again everyone (if there is an everyone; I wonder if the above is written by one or two people). I accidentally bumped into this site again and just wanted to reiterate again for the public record that this site is something along the lines of a kinist attack site, taking vengeance on me for my decision to defend Doug Phillips against what I took to be, and still take to be, libel. This is not, as far as I can tell, a Kirker site at all. And I doubt many of those claiming to be Kirkers are Kirkers — if any at all. I should also note that Doug Faris does not represent the typical Kirker either, if this is in fact the real Doug Faris writing in. Kirkers, but perhaps for Wilson and Jones, attacked from loyalty and sincere emotions. Some did not attack at all and are still friends. The ethos of the kinist/Epstein regime has been far different — far more cold, cruel, and willfully dishonest and libelous. If I had to pick my poison, I’d pick the Kirk. Please do not allow this interesting web site — a site created fairly ad hoc to my year-long investigation of the Kirk — to reflect either the stance of X-Kirkers like myself (who are all pretty well unified in their opinion of the Kirk) or of the Kirk itself (!).
The story, primary documents, and appropriate links regarding the Kirk can be found in ample amount at http://www.poohsthink.com , particularly as found from December 2005 through May 2006. In my opinion, all of the claims about me above — claims that are mostly unique to this site and other kinist/Epstein regime attack sites — have either been answered at Pooh’s Think or else are too strange to address. But given the claimed function of this web site, I will note once again that I have always had an open door to those who wanted to make primary posts to Pooh’s Think — once the comment sections got to unwieldy. I denied only one post from someone who was allowed other posts, and for obvious reasons. And I thank the host of this blog once again for not censuring my comments or banning me from the comment section!
My new contact information has been up in my last post; I don’t know how to change the info on the right hand side of my site. Feel free to send me an email with any thoughts, questions, or complaints.
I might check back in in a few months.
Thanks,
Michael
Michael, you should contact your old pal Charlie Nolan to help you update your contact info. He’s obviously skilled at creating libelous internet sites. Or did you burn your bridges with him too? Do you have any friends left in the world? That’s your first clue that you’re an NPD. NPDs have an impossible time maintaining long term friendships. Quit living in denial about your mental illnesses Michael. Get some help before you totally self destruct.
“The ethos of the kinist/Epstein regime has been far different — far more cold, cruel, and willfully dishonest and libelous.”
Wow! Talk about having a beam in the eye! I’m still not getting this “kinist/Epstein” conspiracy thing, or if there even is such a thing. I did read the Matt Chancey Mrs. Binoculars site. Very conspiratorial. Very speculative. Very cooky. Matt Chancey should work for National Enquirer. No wonder Michael likes it and links to it. It fits well with Michael’s many other conspiratorial delusions. Can’t say as I know much about the Epsteins or kinism conspiracies, but I do know a few things about Michael Metzler. He just described himself in spades. “Cold, cruel, and willfully dishonest and libelous.”
Michael said on January 18, 2007, “It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.”
Michael is still beating that same wacky conspiratorial drum, still making a fool of himself. Keep beating that drum Michael. It’s really helping your image. In addition to NPD, it looks like Michael may also have Paranoid Personality Disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_personality_disorder Michael, better don the tinfoil hat.
Michael is still trying in vain to deflect public scrutiny that he publicly defended one of the biggest racists in Christendom http://racistchurches.wordpress.com after he’d already compared Doug Phillips’ teachings to Hitler.
I might check back in in a few months too, Michael. 😉 I hope by then you can give us a good report about how your therapy is going.
Michael,
I started this site. I am not a kinist, as I’ve said before.
Your so-called open door policy has been a farce from the start, which is why I started this site. Everyone who has read your site knows that you do not allow open dialogue, that you try to crush by sheer weight of words your opponents, and that you are not interested in learning how to overcome animosity from others.
I’m sure that some of these comments are from kinists, but unlike you, I do not moderate this site.
Michael,
I’m not a kinist either. Chris is right about your paranoia. You must think there’s a kinist lurking around every corner getting ready to pounce.
Michael, everything that’s happened to you is your own fault. You’ve brought it down on your own head. You don’t need the assistance of kinists or anyone else to help you ruin your life. No one could help to ruin your life the way that you’ve done yourself. You are your own worst enemy. Kinists have nothing to do with it. Pastor Wilson has nothing to do with it. The Kirk has nothing to do with it. Face it Michael. You’re a mess. You’ve made a total mess of your life. It’s all your fault and nobody else’s. Isn’t it time for you to grow up and take responsibility for your life? Nobody has any sympathy for a crybaby.
Michael, is it true that Doug Phillips threatened to sue you? Is that why you flip flopped? Is that why you defended Doug Phillips? Is that why you became friends with Matt Chancey? I’d rather believe that you’re not a White Supremacist and that you don’t make a habit of befriending Neo-Confederate racist bigots like Doug Phillips. I’d rather believe that the only reason that you flip flopped is because you were threatened with a lawsuit.
What’s the real story behind all this flip floppery, Michael?
Me either. I’m not a Kinist. I don’t see any evidence (unless Michael’s paranoia counts as evidence) that anyone here is a Kinist.
Michael, you just go right ahead and keep making a fool of yourself by accusing everyone of being Kinists. The rantings of a fool can’t hurt my feelings. From what I know about you I don’t think you’re a Kinist either, but I really do have to wonder why you defended a racist like Doug Phillips. Makes no sense to me, unless you’re some kind of closet racist yourself and you’re just trying to deflect attention from yourself by calling everyone that scrutinizes you a Kinist. If you are a racist then you need to repent. But compared to everything else you’ve done that would still come somewhere down the list of your priorities.
My biggest concern is that you repent of being a Judas. A backstabbing Benedict Arnold like you is the last person in the world who should be name calling, especially when there isn’t a shred of proof to support your accusations.
“Some did not attack at all and are still friends.” What “friends” are you talking about Michael? You don’t have any real life friends. The only “friends” you have are the “friends” you hear talking together in your delusional mind.
“Please do not allow this interesting web site — a site created fairly ad hoc to my year-long investigation of the Kirk — to reflect either the stance of X-Kirkers like myself (who are all pretty well unified in their opinion of the Kirk) or of the Kirk itself (!).” What “X-Kirkers” (plural) are you talking about? Charlie Nolan? Terry Morin? Who else?
You’re trying to pretend that there is some significant number of abused former Christ Church members unified in friendship and common cause to bring down the evil Doug Wilson and make the world a safer place. When the reality is that there is just you and a couple of other delusional malcontents. Not finding any more than just a couple of bitter Christians to join you in your war against Pastor Wilson, you turned to the only people who would stand with you in your attack against your former Pastor. You turned to the most liberal of the liberals in Moscow. You can’t find any Christians to stand with you so you turn to the enemies of Christianity and the Church of Jesus Christ. Your tactics in attacking Doug Wilson reveal what you’re really made of. You’ve destroyed yourself with your own bitterness, just like Judas did.
I agreed with the earlier statement that someone made about you being a Judas. I still agree.
Oh! I see that Michael Metzler is back again resorting to his “Anyone who criticizes me is a kinist” smears. Nice try Michael, NOT. Really lame. Can’t you come up with anything better than that? Maybe not. You’re so delusional you probably really believe it. “The kinists are coming to get me!” How sad to be you.
It really does sound like Michael Metzler is suffering from paranoia, and not just a mild form. Michael sees kinists everywhere. The kinists are out to get him. How pathetic. Very tragic. I feel very sorry for Mrs. Metzler. It must be the biggest embarrassment of her life having to be married to ignis fatuus Michael.
Michael Metzler must have an extreme form of paranoia: “In extreme forms, they can’t distinguish reality from fantasy… isolating condition, angry, fearful, suspicious, vengeful.” That’s Michael!
What Is Paranoia?
Being paranoid means being suspicious without reason, and believing that others are trying to harm you in some way. Everyone can be mistrustful at times, particularly if life hasn’t treated him or her well. But people who are prone to paranoia always dread some forthcoming attack or betrayal. They are forever anticipating that something awful will happen, and trying to second-guess what their adversaries might do. They focus on their fears for the future, and take little account of the majority of times when the past has proved them wrong.
In milder forms, the person has some insight into what’s going on and realises their suspicions might be groundless. In extreme forms, they can’t distinguish reality from fantasy. (Psychiatrists may refer to this as a psychosis, and talk about people having delusions.) It can be a very isolating condition, because people feel they can’t depend on anybody. They may feel angry, fearful, guilt-ridden, suspicious, vengeful and excluded, and may become very depressed, as a result.
I wonder why Metzler keeps blaming “Kinists” and “Watchman” and “Epsteins” for all his woes? That just doesn’t make any sense. He’s probably pointing the finger in the wrong direction. What makes sense is that if anyone actually is out to get him at all it would be Doug Phillips and his supporters, like Matt Chancey. Is Metzler really so ignorant that he thinks that just because he posted a silly little “I Was Wrong About Doug Phillips” article that Phillips and his defenders would forgive him? How naive. Mr. Metzler should have already figured out that Doug Phillips doesn’t know the meaning of forgiveness. If he hasn’t figured it out by now, he’ll get it eventually.
I’m very glad to have found this page. The comments here have helped me sort out some questions I’ve had, questions which are all but impossible to get resolved if the only option available was to expect Michael Metzler to come clean.
It does make sense that Doug Phillips threatened to sue Michael Metzler. The more I read his articles that mention Doug Phillips the more I’m amazed that he could be so stupid to publicly libel an attorney.
“Corrupt idiots like Tim Dick, Wilson, and Doug Phillips, are a dime a dozen. What makes them powerful at all to begin with is the willingness of Christians in mass to believe their lies.” “So, what do I like about RC Sproul, Wilson, and Phillips? They are not kinists. I’m actually not sure about Phillips, but if Phillips is a kinist, he keeps it in the closet.” What I Like About The Men’s Club
“But conservatives like Phillips certainly have to fuzz things up a bit to make this work. The women of Phillip’s regime are only pseudo-slaves in our liberalized culture. In ancient times they were slaves indeed; in our society women are slaves through foolishness and licentiousness. They get fondled, lied to, passed around as a useful objects.” Women as Slaves & As Free
“Doug Phillips. He is big, he is wealthy, he teaches heretical patriarchical views, and he despises the church for the purpose of marketing his own business.” “Phillips disparages the church, teaches about the primacy of the family cult where the woman must remain in her father’s house to serve her father lest she be raped in judgment. No joke.” Is Doug Phillips a Corrupt Misogynist?
I see that Michael Metzler has been asked several times here if Doug Phillips threatened him with a lawsuit. With libelous statements like these the only thing that would be surprising is if Doug Phillips hadn’t threatened to sue Michael Metzler.
Why won’t Michael Metzler just answer the question, “Did Doug Phillips threaten to sue you”? Probably because Phillips DID threaten to sue him for all the libelous statements he’s made, not to mention for his supporting the Epsteins and the Watchman. So after months of attacking Doug Phillips he suddenly did an about face. He only explains it with a silly little “I Was Wrong About Doug Phillips” article. Yes, it’s only too obvious that Doug Phillips threatened to sue Michael Metzler, and the fact that Metzler won’t deny it here just makes it too obvious.
Dear Mr. Michael Metzler,
We stand ready to help.
Please call our offices at 619-692-8200.
Dr. John Spivey
San Diego County Mental Health Services
Excellent Post. My compliments to the author.
——————————–SIG———————————-
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Dear Mr. Michael Metzler,
Please disregard the “Buy Salvia” comment. Whoever posted that comment was insensitive to your special mental health needs. In light of the concerns here for your mental health, Salvia Divinorum would be an unacceptable drug to consider in your treatment program, particularly since it would be self-administered. Your issues require professional treatment and careful oversight. The self-administration of recreational drugs, and especially strong hallucinatory drugs like Salvia, could prove to be a dangerous mix, particularly for one who may already suffer from paranoia.
If you happen to already be experimenting with recreational drugs, I would urge you to cease their use immediately.
Please contact our offices. We stand ready to help.
Dr. John Spivey
San Diego County Mental Health Services
619-692-8200
Dr. Spivey,
Michael Metzler was already diagnosed by his former Pastor Doug Wilson as being “the emotional equivalent of a sucking chest wound.” As you probably know, sucking chest wounds are fatal and therefore incurable. In other words there’s no effective treatment for Michael. For the protection of his wife and children, he probably just needs to be institutionalized.
Michael,
Have you moved from Moscow to California yet? How is the transition going?
thanks,
Jim
Jim, on Michael’s blog he says that he’s moved the Cardiff, CA.
I don’t think his transition is going well though. He’s still under some kind of self-imposed mind control to Doug Wilson. He’s still posting comments on Doug Wilson’s blog. He’s still obsessed with Doug Wilson.
Michael, you’re obviously still in bondage to your bitterness, which is why you keep writing about Doug Wilson and posting comments on Pastor Wilson’s blog. It’s so sad and pathetic to see a man in so much bondage. Now that you’ve moved out of Moscow you have a wonderful opportunity to move on in all the other areas of your life too. Why won’t you? Get over your obsession with Doug Wilson before you self-destruct.
Poor Michael. He just can’t resist the temptation to rush the stage and jump into someone else’s spotlight.
Doug Wilson was just featured in a surprisingly well balanced article in the liberal New York Times, Onward Christian Scholars. Tragically for Michael Metzler, he wasn’t able to gratify his craving for attention because the article didn’t mention him as the self-appointed festering pimple on Doug Wilson’s bum.
No doubt Michael Metzler would have loved to finagle an interview with Molly Worthen for the New York Times article. Lucky for residents of Moscow, Michael Metzler had moved away months before and was already preoccupied, surfing at the beaches in S. California.
Not getting the limelight he so craves, and not willing to permit Doug Wilson to become famous without him riding on Doug’s coattails, Michael let us know that he’s posting comments about the NYT article right on Doug Wilson’s blog. Being the good sport that Doug is he let Michael do it.
Michael continues to do whatever he can, however insignificant and inconsequential it be, to draw attention to himself. Sad.
Chris
Check out the Southern Poverty Law Center’s article, NYT College Profile Omits Some Key Facts. As one commenter there noted, Michael Metzler’s only notoriety is that Doug Wilson referred to him as “the emotional equivalent of a sucking chest wound,” and the commenter references another SPLC article in which that statement is made. But even that article doesn’t mention Michael Metzler by name.
Michael Metzler is destined to go down in obscurity, not even being successful in getting his name mentioned in the national press, or even the SPLC, as the guy that the famous Doug Wilson called “the emotional equivalent of a sucking chest wound.” Could anything be more frustrating for a narcissist? Poor Michael.
It may not be much, but at least he’ll always have Pooh’s Think With Comments.
Chris
Michael Metzler says, “latest update : there has been a good deal of sentiment floating around the internet from our anonymous, kinist/racist, anti-Doug Phillips friend(s) now that I have mildly popped back into the internet world; you can find some concentrations of this sentiment in a few of the links I have provided above. So for those of you who have not yet seen Matthew Chancey’s Mrs. Binoculars, I would recommend taking a look — some excellent street-smart investigative journalistism for the blog world.”
Michael Metzler giving an endorsement to Matt Chancey for “excellent street-smart investigative journalistism” is like Heidi Fleiss giving an endorsement to Paris Hilton for “excellent modesty because she often remembers to put her panties on before going out in public.”
Michael,
Do you really think that Doug Phillips is happy to see your comments on the Southern Poverty Law Center? You say you’re defending him, but all you ever manage to accomplish is to put the spotlight on the disgusting side of Doug Phillips’ character.
If Doug Phillips has threatened to sue you why do you keep talking about him at all? Now you’ve gone and done it with the nation’s leading anti-racist organization, the SPLC. If the SPLC now starts writing exposes about Doug Phillips he’ll have you to thank for it.
The more you try and “defend” Doug Phillips the more you just wind up exposing him as a Neo-Confederate White Supremacist, and by defending a Neo-Confederate White Supremacist it’s just bound to make a lot of people wonder why you would have those kinds of loyalties. Do you and Doug Phillips share the same views on race, as well as the same hypocrisy and methods of covering it up?
If your motive really was to defend Doug Phillips, your best defense would be to just shut up. But it’s impossible for a narcissist to keep his mouth shut, isn’t it Michael? So you just keep provoking Doug Phillips to have to do something extreme to shut you up, like suing you.
You really must want to get sued real bad. But why would anyone actually want to get sued? As a narcissist maybe you’d really enjoy the attention?
You’re very sick Michael. For the sake of your wife and children, please get some professional help.
“Do you and Doug Phillips share the same views on race, as well as the same hypocrisy and methods of covering it up?”
YES and YES.
It’s easy to find links and references to the Kinist portal Little Geneva on Pooh’s Think. Too easy. For a long time Michael Metzler frequented Little Geneva and enjoyed their articles a great deal. Only much later on did he turn negative on Little Geneva.
Michael Metzler developed a weird obsession with Kinists and Kinism in 2006, or probably 2005. For a long time Michael Metzler had a fascination with the Kinist portal Little Geneva (now defunct). Michael Metzler was repeatedly warned to stay away from Little Geneva and to not link to Kinist and racist web sites. He ignored the advice of friends. Soon there were suspicions that Michael Metzler was a Kinist or a White Supremacist himself.
Notice this article in which Michael Metzler admits being warned by friends about Little Geneva, but he doesn’t say one way or the other what his own opinions about Kinism and Little Geneva are. Is Michael Metzler’s earlier refusal to condemn Kinism an indication of personal sympathy for Kinism? Was Michael Metzler quietly giving a wink and a nod to racism?
In spite of his friends’ warnings, Michael Metzler didn’t stop reading and associating himself with and linking to Little Geneva. Notice this Michael Metzler statement in which he claims that reading Little Geneva “helps me to keep my sanity.”
Claiming that reading a particular site helps you to keep your sanity is about as strong an endorsement for a site that there is. So if reading Little Geneva helped Michael Metzler keep his sanity, what’s the likelihood that he’d only “visited Little Geneva about five times over the last year”? That’s probably not a truthful statement at all. Someone who’s had as much of a fascination with Kinists and Kinism as Michael Metzler has had probably visited Little Geneva faithfully quite often.
Eventually though Michael does start to take the warnings of his friends seriously. It took a long time, and it probably only happened because one of his friends turned against Michael Metzler for his “open and known association with the Kinists of Little Geneva.”
Ever since then Michael Metzler has tried to distance himself from Kinists and Kinism. He’s been running scared. But if he really disliked Kinism so much why did Michael Metzler act for months like he actually admired the Kinists? Why was he linking to them and commenting favorably about their articles and their beliefs?
There appears to be strong evidence that Michael Metzler is a closet Kinist. He’s just too embarrassed to admit it. It reminds me of Sen. Larry Craig’s laughable claim, “I’m not gay, I just have a wide stance.”
Dear “Concerned For Mrs. Metzler”,
Would you mind defining which Mrs. Metzler you be referring to.
Mike’s first wife or his second wife? Or could you be referring to his new girlfriend?
All this talk about “kinists” and “kinism” from Michael Metzler. Michael seems as obsessed with kinists as he is with Doug Wilson.
It does look like early on that Michael Metzler was sympathetic to kinist writings, and then only later did he decide to condemn kinism. In “H1: Kinists & the Montana Cave Theory” (12/9/06) Michael Metzler proves his superior intellectual powers and innovative investigative journalism skills with this ingenious fact finding formula:
“S is a kinist if and only if S’s behavioral disposition leads with a fair degree of reliability to the following two results: 1) S refuses to publicly deny they are a kinist and 2) S refuses to show moral misgivings about the kinist position.”
Michael, you’re such a scholar! You should really make a career change and become a professional detective! With the development of such innovative formulas as these you could easily convince juries in courts all over the land about the guilt of people who otherwise might be impossible to convict. Your expert testimony would soon be heavily in demand by trigger-happy prosecutors all over the place.
Or maybe not. Maybe there’s some sort of career for you in the dark and convoluted world of philosophy?
Sauce, goose, gander: “S is a narcissist if and only if S’s behavioral disposition leads with a fair degree of reliability to the following two results: 1) S refuses to publicly deny they are a narcissist and 2) S refuses to show moral misgivings about the narcissist position.”
Michael, in the article that I just quoted from, didn’t the people that you accused of being kinists deny being kinists many months ago? Not that such a thing would make any difference to someone like you. You’re much too easily confused with such trivial things as facts.
Everyone should take note that you’ve never denied being a narcissist, even though you’ve been accused here and elsewhere of being a narcissist many times. According to your own formula, this would mean…
Thankfully though no one need rely on such hair-brained formulas as those you concoct, or on conspiracy theories, or guilt by association, to determine what a man really is. There are far more logical and intellectually honest diagnostic methods available. Such diagnostic methods would tell us, for example, that you are in serious need of professional help. For the sake of your wife and kids please get some help.
“Mike’s first wife or his second wife? Or could you be referring to his new girlfriend?”
Why am I not surprised to hear this?
Because narcissists always have to be in complete control over others, and because of their pathological need for obsequious admiration, narcissists are very prone to ruining their friendships. Narcissists inevitably have many more ex-friends than do healthy people. Their friendships tend to be very short-term, which means they are constantly seeking out new victims to prey on.
Narcissists are also incapable of healthy marriages. NPDs have an extremely high rate of divorce. But NPDs seldom ever remain divorced for long. They’re too eager to jump right back into another marriage, to ruin another life, all for the sake of gratifying their own frail egos. Elizabeth Taylor is a good example of this “disposable spouse” mentality. Until NPDs get well they shouldn’t marry at all.
NPDs almost always have extremely bad relationships with their own children too, and the damage they cause their children means they really shouldn’t ever become parents in the first place.
NPDs are often very charming (at least initially) and very crafty and cunning, and because of their overwhelming compulsion for slavish devotion, they can’t help but use people, and their own spouses and children are no exception. The typical male NPD will go through life marrying and divorcing one woman after another. They also seldom ever have any sense of duty toward marital fidelity. Male NPDs almost always keep a mistress or girlfriend on the side. Many of them also keep boyfriends on the side.
Which Mrs. Metzler am I concerned for? I’m concerned for ALL of them, past, present, and future. I’m also concerned for his girlfriends/mistresses.
Are there actually comments being posted here to refute Michael’s assertions? I see mainly see a lot of very rude comments that just serve to smear Michael which only make Michael look all that more credible to me. Is there room on this site for a coherent discussion? How about we start with one or two of the more egregious things that Michael has posted (if any) to open the dialogue?
It’s good Scott to see someone finally go to bat for Michael. Maybe he actually does have a friend left in the world after all? But come on! Do you actually think he’s “credible”?
Scott, for at least a year and a half Michael has worked extremely hard to earn the multitude of enemies that he’s now got. It didn’t happen over night. It required a lot of time and effort on his part. He’s been very successful at accomplishing his goal (making a lot of enemies), so don’t try and take that away from him.
The only thing that matters to Michael is that he gets attention. With Michael any attention of almost any kind is *good* attention, as long as it’s not about anyone examining him personally. Angry attention, or friendly attention (like yours), making friends or making enemies, it really doesn’t matter. It’s just all about getting attention, it’s just all about Michael. The way he’s learned to get the most attention is by smearing people. For someone like Michael it’s a lot easier making enemies than making friends. It just comes natural for him. Lying and being a total hypocrite while he smears only helps him get more attention, so that’s okay by him too.
What Michael doesn’t want is the kind of attention that causes anyone to examine him personally and what a complete mess his own life is. That’s *bad* attention, the kind of attention that shuts him up.
Michael wasn’t always so eager to make enemies. He use to actually try and make some friends. But even back in the years when Michael wasn’t totally controlled by the intense bitterness he carries around today, he still had a major “creepiness factor” about him that caused most people to want to avoid him, and those that didn’t avoid him wanted to try and help him out of pity. That was the big mistake that Pastor Wilson made. After the nightmare Doug went through with the emotional black hole that is Michael Metzler, Doug probably won’t ever make that kind of a mistake again.
You’ll notice that in some of the comments above you’ll already find more than just “one or two of the more egregious things that Michael has posted.” It’s not anyone’s responsibility to “refute Michael’s assertions.” It’s Michael’s responsibility to produce the evidence for his assertions. He’s seldom done that.
I do agree with you though that there are at least a few “very rude comments that just serve to smear Michael.” After everything he’s done to smear Doug Wilson and Christ Church, not to mention all the smearing he’s made against Doug Phillips, Steve Wilkins, and who knows how many others, could it be that maybe Michael’s just getting a taste of his own medicine? I’m not saying that I agree with that. All I’m saying is that Michael shouldn’t be surprised that what goes around comes around. When you pee in your own beer you shouldn’t be surprised by the odd taste.
As for “open the dialogue?”, again shouldn’t that have been Michael’s responsibility, and shouldn’t he have done that many months ago, like he promised repeatedly to do, by opening the comments on his own blog? If he’d done that this Pooh’s Think With Comments blog wouldn’t even exist.
I’m not interested in reading / hearing about personal attacks against Michael. To me this looks like a character assassination just being used as a diversion tactic and again just make Michael look that much more credible to me. Doug Wilson has posted comments about the Steve Wilkins case on how charges should have brought from within the congregation and since that never happened, there is some sort of breach in process and that Steve is being railroaded by the SJC. There was an interesting post on the Green Bagginses site about how bringing charges within the congregation would be tantamount to suicide (The case of the missing Kamikaze Presbytery). To me, this is what looks likes happened to Michael. He was gearing up to bring charges against Doug Wilson and low and behold, he was booted from Christ Church.
No Scott, Michael did not get “booted” out of the church. He was given a lot of time to bring valid charges against his pastor. He chose instead to bring “personal attacks” in a public forum. He then left the church on his own and never, as cowards often do, came back to fight for his case with real evidence. The same thing that the SJC is doing by the way – not using real evidence.
He also never opened his comments section back up as he swore that he would do. Yet another cowardly move.
“He was gearing up to bring charges against Doug Wilson and low and behold, he was booted from Christ Church.”
Great spin, Scott.
Hello Thomas. I loved your comments to Michael over on Doug Wilson’s blog. Take this one for example,
Here’s an article that proves that Michael Metzler’s mental condition isn’t something that he can help. If he can’t help it why is everyone being so mean to him? Please show Michael some sympathy. Would you make fun of someone who was born with Downs Syndrome, or a mentally retarded person?
Michael Metzler’s brain is “wired differently” and he was probably born that way. He can’t help it. Please try and be more kind.
http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/11655.html
I agree with you Randy. Even though Michael Metzler is “the emotional equivalent of a sucking chest wound”, even though Michael Metzler is a cowardly hypocritical pathological liar, and a narcissistic backstabbing Judas and a kinist, he just can’t help it. He’s got a major mental defect, and he was born that way. He can’t help it. We should all take pity on him as we also praise God that he moved away.
So let’s all be kind to Michael. Let’s declare this Be Kind To Michael Metzler Day.
Luke
Michael Metzler is one of a few brave souls who have the guts to point out Pastor Wilson’s bad behavior. Michael must have known that Pastor Wilson’s lap dogs would pounce on him in s similar manner that they have done to others who have pointed out that Emperor Doug Wilson has no clothes.
What brought me to this site in the first place was all the hubbub going on down at Auburn Avenue. Although that whole situation of Steve Wilkins behaving badly seems to have been resolved simply with him leaving the PCA and moving over to the de-balled CREC which will not hold Wilkins accountable for anything. I’m quite surprised that this situation took so long to unfold.
And as for the PCA, they should count their blessings that Steve Wilkins is no longer a member of their ranks.
“Michael Metzler is one of a few brave souls who have the guts”
Scott, you’ve got some of the most impressive spin I’ve ever seen! “Brave” and “guts” are just about the last adjectives in the world that anybody (but you) would ever think to apply to a spinless coward like Michael Metzler.
Shouldn’t that be “spineless coward like Michael Metzler”? “Spinless coward” would imply that Michael doesn’t spin, and as we all know Michael is the king of spin.
I couldn’t agree more that Michael Metzler is a spineless coward. Scott is terribly confused. He’s equating Michael’s mocking and hectoring with “bravery and guts”. Next Scott will be trying to convince us that Michael Metzler is “brilliant, humble and wise”.
Here’s another story on Michael Metzler’s brain wiring thingy.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=87922568
One More Ex Friend said, “Michael Metzler developed a weird obsession with Kinists and Kinism in 2006, or probably 2005. For a long time Michael Metzler had a fascination with the Kinist portal Little Geneva (now defunct). Michael Metzler was repeatedly warned to stay away from Little Geneva and to not link to Kinist and racist web sites. He ignored the advice of friends. Soon there were suspicions that Michael Metzler was a Kinist or a White Supremacist himself.”
I remember that too. Just Google on “Michael Metzler Kinist” and you’ll find some real strange and interesting things about Michael Metzler’s former love for Kinists. It was only more recently that he decided to publicly denounce Kinism. But before he claimed to be opposed to Kinism he really liked them. It reminds me of John Kerry’s “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.” Kerry earned the title of a “flip flopper.” Michael has earned it too. No one every believes the sincerity of a flip flopper. Flip floppers have no real personal convictions and therefore can never be trusted about anything they ever say. They never speak from real conviction, only from what they view as being personally advantageous at the moment. In Michael’s case, if he views it personally advantageous at the moment to praise Kinists and link to their blogs he’ll do it. But if later he finds it personally advantageous to condemn Kinists and anyone else who he wants to malign and unjustly smear as being “associated with Kinists,” no matter how strained the evidence, he’ll do that too. He did it to Ministry Watchman, even though they never linked to Kinists and even though they never praised Kinists, like Michael himself has done. What a hypocrite.
Michael not only linked to Kinists he openly praised Kinist writings. For example, on May 15, 2006 Michael wrote a Pooh’s Think article “Wilson’s Rhetorical Manipulation of the Insiders” in which he said, “You must read somone’s latest post on Doug Wilson. Whoever this guy is (“Badlands”), he nails it; I mean he really really nails it.” In response on June 4, 2006 on the Vision 2020 mail list Austin Storm said, “Also amusing is how Mr. Metzler is willing to quote the kinists when they say something bad about us.” From what I recollect Badlands was run by a guy who was even far more hateful and racist of a Kinist than the guy who ran Little Geneva.
Michael, after all your linking to Kinists, and all your praise of Kinists and how “he nails it; I mean he really really nails it”, it’s a little late now to be pretending that you hate Kinists and Kinism. Way too much flip flopping for anyone to be able to believe you.
Michael Metzler,
I have a friend who is convinced you are a kinist. Could you help me out here?
There have been so many good questions here. Michael hasn’t really addressed any of them. I don’t think he’s going to ever respond to all the concerns about his associations with kinists and racists, but I’ll at least try one more time.
This Public statement of protest regarding Michael Metzler’s slandering of the CREC and COTK refers to Michael Metzler as a “former bedfellow of Harry Seabrook” of Little Geneva fame. This seems to confirm that, at least at one time, Michael Metzler was very cozy with the kinists.
Michael, it’s problematic that you haven’t been able to deny your past kinist associations. Are you still associating with kinists? Has anything changed recently? Have you sworn off kinism and racism and are you no longer associating with kinists? Or are you still a kinist bedfellow? My friend still wants to know.
PTWC,
Chasing Metzler is a waste of time at this point. He has shamed himself into obscurity.
Can anyone speak about the melt down of the Epstein family, the legal troubles of Frank Vance that forced him to quit blogging or the effect of those problems on Ministry Watchman? This site has been very friendly to all of them and it seems like some explanation is in order. (see comment #16 in this thread)
That same comment also praises Harry Seabrook and lumps him together with the Ministry Watchman, throwing an unusual light on all the questions about Kinism here. There seems to be some direct linkage from those people to this site.
What’s the story?
Art Reiser
“Chasing Metzler is a waste of time at this point.” Chasing Metzler would have probably always been a waste of time. It’s not like anyone could ever reason with him.
He has shamed himself into obscurity.” I wish that were true. Metzler has done anything but making himself obscure, and he’s anything but ashamed. You’re not paying attention Art. You think just because he hasn’t posted anything on Pooh’s Think for a bit that he’s obscure? Metzler’s been the busy little beaver posting comments on blogs attacking Doug Wilson. Just check out the comments he’s been making on Green Baggins. All anyone has to do is mention anything related to Doug Wilson on any blog and there pops up Metzler. He never misses a chance to attack Doug Wilson and any of Doug’s friends. It just never ends. I know I’m not the only one who’s annoyed by it. If anyone is “chasing” it’s Metzler. Maybe someday Metzler really will fade into obscurity, but as for right now he’s still in his chasing Doug Wilson mode.
What about my questions?
Art
Art, that’s the same stuff Michael said for months. We all know how credible Michael is right? We also know how eager he is to change the subject. At least this time there could be something to what you’re saying. It looks like you’re right about some big problems for the Epstein family. You got my curiosity. Sure enough there’s some discussion going on at Jen Epsteins blog about her husband divorcing her. I assume that’s what you mean. You sound real happy about. Happy in a creepy sort of way. Is this sad news something to be happy about? I don’t like anything about what Jen Epstein has been doing, but even if we don’t like her that’s no cause to be happy about her divorce. I find all this bickering very sad and very unChristlike, including all the uncharitable things said about Michael too. I don’t care for Michael very much either. I don’t like all the problems he’s caused. He’s been a big pain. He’s still being a big pain. Even being a big pain I think we should try and treat him charitably. More charitably than what I see here. Even if Michael really did have all the mental problems that people think he has how could any of this talk about it help him? What the world needs is charity. That starts with US people! Could we PLEASE start to show Michael some charity? That’s the only thing that could help him.
Melissa
Can anyone at this site answer Art’s questions about the Epstein’s, Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance, Kinism, etc. I’m interested in that too.
Clark
Art, Mark’s peculiar comment (16) does seem to mesh with Michael Metzler’s paranoid kinist conspiracies, and all with a giddy Lord Of The Rings flourish. But who or what is this Badonicus and Old Fetid Backwaters Theatre? Google is your friend Art. Apparently Badonicus was a kinist blogger that was hosted on the defunct Little Geneva.
Clark, as Michael already told us about this Pooh’s Think With Comments blog, “It is primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.” Michael has long been about conspiracies. Before his kinist conspiracies his primary conspiracy obsession has been Doug Wilson’s megalomaniacal takeover of Moscow, aided and abetted by his worshipful Kirk followers. Anyone who lives in Moscow, whether they like or dislike Doug Wilson, knows how silly Michael’s conspiracies are. If Doug really were trying to take over Moscow he’s been nothing but a miserable failure at it. Being a miserable takeover failure (as in Doug isn’t even trying to do that) only further confirms what a fruitcake Michael is. Conspiracy theories not only have to have some credible evidence to back them up, the goal of the conspiracy has to have some theoretical and practical odds of success. Otherwise it just appears ridiculous. http://swallowingthecamel.blogspot.com/2007/08/worlds-weirdeststupidest-conspiracy.html
Michael should consider applying for a job at one of the tabloids. Why just write silly blog conspiracies for nothing when you could make a good living from it?
Once you adopt a paranoid conspiratorial mindset there’s just no end of it. Just like Joseph McCarthy you’ll have to look for other conspiracies to concoct and other conspirators to smear. The lack of evidence is disregarded. Michael believes it in his Poohbrain and therefore it is so. All he needs to back up a story are the formulas he’s been learning from his philosophy books. Once the standard for evidence has been disregarded as much as Michael has done it just becomes easier and easier to bear false witness against others.
Michael’s conspiracies didn’t end with Doug Wilson. He’s cast a net over a host of others too. The Epsteins, Frank Vance, Ministry Watchman, even any visitors to this blog, etc. are all “kinists”. I’m a kinist too because I posted a couple of comments on this blog which is “primarily a Watchman/kinist place to come and make libelous and ungrounded remarks.” We’re all kinists and we’re all conspiring as kinists to get Michael because, well, Michael says we are. Michael knows it’s all one big kinist conspiracy because, well, Matt Chancey says it’s so. Matt Chancey knows it’s so because, well, he put up a web site with a bunch of footnotes, and as we all know, footnotes make it so.
Still confused? So is everyone else. Just keep reminding yourself that if it has anything to do with Michael Metzler it’s not supposed to make sense.
I’ll just make one more comment and I think I’m probably done here. I have no way of knowing for sure but I’m guessing that hardly anyone here really believes that Michael Metzler is a kinist. Maybe nobody at all. It appears to me that what’s been going on here has been some tit for tat fun, giving Michael “a taste of his own medicine.”
Here’s the problem with that. Michael’s not taking the hint that it’s foolish to smear others with “They’re kinists!” without any proof at all. With his own past history it’s just way too easy to turn the tables and make the same accusations against him. That’s what I see happening here. If I’m right about that then let me point out that it’s a failed strategy, at least in terms of getting Michael to change his ways.
I think by now we all get that Michael posts comments here under aliases, and lots of other places too, even though he’s “one of the most non anonymous guys on the internet.” When he posts comments on other people’s blogs he still routinely has something to say about “The kinists are out to get me!” http://greenbaggins.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/the-fv-multiplying-by-dividing/#comment-44931
I can see how some people might have had some fun playing this tit for tat with Michael, but how can this be fun by now? Michael’s just too dense and paranoid to even see “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.” Unlike people here who apparently don’t believe in kinist conspiracies, Michael is delusional and really does believe his own paranoia. Making fun of him over it isn’t going to get him to see the error of his way.
It’s very sad and tragic to witness someone going through a paranoia induced mental breakdown like this. Melissa proposes being “charitable” to Michael, and that being charitable could help him. Melissa, I know of a number of people who did everything humanly possible to be charitable to Michael. You can’t give charitable help to someone who thinks he’s the only sane person in the world.
Clark,
The Epsteins, Vance and Ministry Watchman continue to add to the long list of churches and organizations they have troubled and wrongly accused. Those that know them (myself included) are saddened by how they confuse senseless attacks with Christian duty. They have been rebuked many, many times but are unrestrainable.
Martin
To quote Steve from Michael Metzler Is A Liar:
Doug Phillips and Matthew Chancey are liars, cheats and hypocrites. Many people won’t ever see it because they’re so polished when it comes to their public image. They’re entire lives are about image, but the image they create for themselves is just the opposite of who they really are. Just try working with them like I have for awhile and you’d have to be blind to miss it. But that’s exactly what they demand from interns and employees. Blind devotion. If you’re not willing to give it they’ll find a way of paying you back. They are hateful and vengeful and they are NOT Christians.
I see many comments here about Michael Metzler ignoring double standards and making many of his own double standards. Then there’s his hypocrisy. Trust me on this one. If you think that Michael Metzler is a major hypocrite you haven’t had to deal with Doug Phillips and Matt Chancey. These two make the Pharisees look tame. I don’t disagree that Michael Metzler is a hypocrite, but he’s not even close to being in the Doug Phillips’ Major Leagues of Hypocrisy.
For those who don’t already know, Matt Chancey is Doug Phillips’ errand boy and “independent investigator” who put up the mrsbinoculars.com blog that smeared the Epsteins and Ministry Watchman for their supposed “associations with kinists.” I don’t think the Epsteins handled their dispute with Doug Phillips all that well. Did they deserve to be smeared by Phillips and Chancey like that for it though? I don’t think so. It was very wrong. It was very foolish, and Doug set a terrible and very unchristian example. In a way though it was good that it happened because Doug Phillips and Matt Chancey got to show their real selves. For those who haven’t figured it out yet, Doug Phillips and Matt Chancey are EVIL hypocrites and liars.
Sometimes Chancey’s methods work. With Mrs. Binoculars though it all just backfired and blew up in their faces. Word from the inside is that Mrs. Binoculars has cost Vision Forum far more than they ever gained from it. Now it’s too late. They’re committed and they can’t take it down. Doug Doug Phillips and Matt Chancey have been smearing people for years. Most people don’t realize that Doug is the one pulling all the strings behind the scenes. Nothing happens without Doug directing it. He does it because “it works”, or at least it’s worked up until now. Doug and Matt will probably never repent, but at least they’ll probably think it through a lot more carefully before they decide to smear anyone else again. They’ll probably avoid attacking people who fight back, and only go after the weak and helpless.
Comment 118 follows a pattern that has been repeated by Epstein, Vance and Ministry Watchman and their devotees on numerous blogs.
Claim to be a former employee (with inside information)
Claim the right to make extremely slanderous charges, either contrived or based on gossip
Claim that Vance, Watchman and the Epsteins are guiltless martyrs
Claim that the organizations they harass are falling apart due to corruption
Claim to have heroically exposed that corruption
In every case, they have been shown to by lying and malicious. What an unusual perversion of truth and what an appetite for rebellion.
Hey Current Disputer,
Your fogot to hit him on anonymity as well.
“In every case, they have been shown to by lying and malicious. What an unusual perversion of truth and what an appetite for rebellion.”
Really, where would that have been? The Mrs.bino site?
“Patterns” really prove a lot, don’t they Current Disputer? Well, not really, but they make for fun speculation, don’t they? I could try and speculate some things about you too and your “patterns” but I’m afraid that it would make me look foolish. I prefer not to make a fool of myself.
Current Disputer, you forgot to hit on hypocrisy as well. Oh, and there’s also that nagging issue of cowardice and double standards galore.
Just like the cowardly hypocrite Michael Metzler, Matt Chancey doesn’t allow comments on his blog, so no one gets to interact with him and answer his absurd “questions.” Just like Michael Metzler he smears people and they don’t get to respond. Is it any wonder so many have responded here? Where else are they going to respond?
Matt Chancey is a paid professional political hit man. He’s paid to destroy other men’s reputations by any means. Matt Chancey should expect that by the same measuring stick that you measure others with you will be measured with yourself. By applying that same measuring stick it’s been easily shown that Matt Chancey is “running with Kinists” a lot more than he ever proved with the Epsteins, Frank Vance and Ministry Watchman, and here’s just one example of Matt Chancey’s hypocrisy, http://graceindelible.blogspot.com/2007/12/more-hilarious-kinism-connections.html
Unlike Matt Chancey’s tabloidish “investigation” this article really has some substance to it. Lots of undisputed facts without all the conspiracy theories and absurd speculations, and it’s even really easy to understand.
In a nutshell, Kinist Institute founding father Chad Degenhart is a member of James McDonald’s church, and James McDonald has a very close relationship with Matt Chancey and Doug Phillips. James McDonald also comments on Degenhart’s blog and refers to Degenart as “Brother Chad”. James McDonald’s wife, Stacy McDonald, co-authored a book with Jennie Chancey, Matt Chancey’s wife. The book is “Passionate Housewives, Desperate For God”. The book is sold by Doug Phillips’ Vision Forum and Phillips has Stacy and Jennie speak at his conferences. The Chancey’s are also moving their church toward joining the same denomination that James McDonald organized after he bailed out of the denomination that defrocked his pal R.C. Sproul, Jr. The Chancey’s are also under the “spiritual oversight” of James McDonald.
Does this prove that the McDonald’s are kinists and that Jennie Chancey is therefore “running with Kinists” and that Matt Chancey is married to a Kinist? If we use Matt Chancey’s measuring stick, and we apply his own standards of “evidence,” then yes, it “proves” that very thing, and it’s much easier to prove than anything that Matt Chancey proved about the Epsteins, Frank Vance and Ministry Watchman.
In the real world though it proves nothing, and probably everyone here knows it. The McDonalds are probably not kinists, anymore than are the Epsteins, Frank Vance, Ministry Watchman, and any of you other “conspirators” out there lurking in the shadows. Matt Chancey knows these things too. He didn’t put up Mrs. Binoculars because he actually believes any of it. Apparently the only person foolish (or paranoid?) enough to actually believe the Mrs. Binoculars blog is Michael Metzler.
Mark Epstein (aka Facts Not Patterns)
You have made yourself look like a fool all over the internet for years. You specialize in foolishness. You are the most misguided individual I’ve ever encountered. You are stubborn, unwise, malicious, arrogant, inept, untruthful, vengeful and prideful. Though you protest and slander, you have been excommunicated. That FACT remains. Do not presume to counsel or rebuke another living soul anywhere, anytime, on any subject. Repent of your horrific sin.
Current Disputer
Current Disputer, you are not a “disputer” at all. As was recommended to Michael Metzler, please get a dictionary. You don’t understand the definition of a “disputation.” So with that in mind, from now on please assume the identity of “Foolish Speculator of Patterns Resulting In Absurd Conclusions”.
I am not Mark Epstein or anyone else that you could possibly know. Feel free to continue guessing though. You’re doing a wonderful job of proving my point that speculating just makes you look like a fool. May I suggest that if you have some issues with Mark Epstein that you take it up personally with Mark Epstein?
Facts Not Patterns,
I like that talk you have said about all these people. I know there’s conspiracy two, same way you do partner. If these people would just see that we got this country in the first place and maybe just consider how it all came in too being, we don’t need them anyhow? Write? rite. what your sayin is tru, this a foolish. It hasn’t proved it. You tell them more Facts, not patterns, because there diffrunt. that’s for sure.
Bob Mank
Vance (post 121 and 123)
I thought you gave up blogging when you got your clock cleaned for lying and slander?
AVT
Apparently it bears repeating: I am not Mark Epstein or anyone else that you could possibly know of [wouldn’t it go without saying that that would have to include “Frank Vance”?]. You’re doing a wonderful job of proving my point that speculating just makes you look like a fool.
AVT, you are so funny. You talk about “lying and slander?” Too much. What is the point of all these fun guessing games, other than lying and slandering?
So let me see if I can help you out.
“Facts”, I know who you are. You’re Jen Epstein.
No? Wait. You’re Natasha Epstein.
No? You’re the Epsteins’ trained monkey.
No? You must be Karen Campbell.
No? You must be one of those other antipatriarch egalitarian blogging women saying bad things against Doug Phillips.
No? Hang on a second while we start picking names out of the phone book, looking for patterns and things like that.
But that’s not lying and slandering, and you’re not just making this up as you go. It’s street smart investigative journalism, Matt Chancey style.
Everybody,
It’s no secret that my mom and dad are messed up freakazoids. When they’re not fighting each other, they’re fighting everyone else. But I don’t care anymore cause I’m leaving the country. Yeah!!!!!!
It’s wrong how Ministry Watchman and Vance twisted stories about all these people to cover up their own lies and problems. All you people at this site who think this stuff they’re sayin is true are really getting hosed. Just do like me and blow it off. It’s totally not worth stressin.
Shawty’s a killer ya’ll.
Natasha Epstein
FNP,
Your IP address and registration names are being exposed when you post here. I don’t know if you’ve got a messed up POP or something. All the fields are filling in automatiocally. Your identity is visible to everyone reading your comments at this site. If you are concerned about your anonymity being exposed further call your service provider.
Brandon G
Natasha Epstein and Brandon Giromini? Please. Not very convincing.
This wouldn’t be the first time that Doug Phillips’ ecclesiastical mafia boys posted comments like these.
Nice job though fellas of showing us just how corrupt a business Vision Forum really is.
Please don’t stop now. Do continue speaking of “lying and slandering” while you falsely assume the identities of real people.
David (aka Jen),
I have no affiliation whatsoever with VF. You are guilty of the same sterotyping which you supposedly denounce. I’m just dealing with IP addresses.
Brandon Granger
David,
The Epsteins, Watchman and Vance have used dozens of aliases, fake identities and pseudonymns. They have used these names as they systematically attacked numerous, reputable Christian organizations over the last two years. To defend them in the manner you have is either naive, gullable or because you are intent on the same destructive behavior. Which is it?
Ken
Ken,
I know you’d like for it to be an either/or. Sorry that I can’t help you out by agreeing to the terms of your argument.
I do agree though that there has been “destructive behavior.” I disagree with your agenda to lay it all at the feet of the Epsteins, Watchman, Vance, etc. There’s plenty of guilt to go around for all parties involved.
I happen to be offended by ALL the destructive behavior perpetrated by all parties in this hullabaloo.
You believe that only the Epsteins, Watchman, Vance, etc. are guilty of destructive behavior, while you completely ignore the destructive behavior of Doug Phillips and the entire culture of destruction that he breeds.
The fact that I point out the hypocrisy of this is in no way a defense of the Epsteins, Watchman, Vance, or anyone else, regardless of your eagerness to see it that way.
The fact that I see Mrs. Binoculars, SFU, etc. as evidence of “destructive behavior” is in no way a defense of those that those blogs seek to destroy.
So call me “naive or gullible” but I think that it ALL needs to end.
From my naive and gullible perspective it ought to start with Doug Phillips. He’s the pastor, isn’t he? Shouldn’t he be setting the example to end the destructive behavior? So why hasn’t he instructed Matt Chancey and the SFU boys to take down their destructive blogs?
Has Doug Phillips ever set an example of peacemaking and being at peace with all men? Is he even capable of turning the other cheek? Not from what I’ve seen. To me it appears that Doug Phillips is just all about vengeance.
I would never excuse the Epsteins’ behavior. But I also can’t help but wonder if they’re not just following the destructive example of their former pastor. Mrs. Binoculars and SFU only add to the strong evidence for supporting my concerns about that.
David,
Thank you for agreeing that the Epsteins, Vance and Watchman have all engaged in destructive behavior. You are right that there is plenty of guilt to go around among them.
The problem is that they do not agree with your assessment. They believe they have been right to bear false witness against dozens and dozens of Christian people and the organizations they serve.
Among the organizations they have wronged, you keep mentioning VF and Phillips. There are many others who have been slandered and libeled by the Epstein, Vance and Watchman public activities. This blog mob continues to slander others at will, though all evidence is contrary to their claims. It is telling that you do not acknowledge those offenses or even seem to be aware of them.
You carelessly accuse DP of spiritual abuses based on the specious posts and attack blogs of the Epsteins, Vance and Watchman. That is not the way to gain an objective (or Biblical) view of anyone or any dispute.
“I would never excuse the Epsteins’ behavior.”
Good and I hope you’ve told them that. They have not only attempted to excuse their sinful behavior but they hold it out as an example to others. It is common for perpetrators to reinvent themselves as victims after being caught. Perhaps you can persuade them how wrong they’ve been.
There is a long list of disrupted churches and Christian organizations that tried before you.
Ken
Ken, there’s a long list of abusive cultic churches and various and assorted corrupt Christian organizations that could stand a little disruption from their abuses, and a little spotlight on their prideful ways. Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits.” Just because Doug Phillips, Brad Phillips, R.C. Sproul, R.C. Sproul, Jr. etc. claim to be “Christian” doesn’t make it so. This isn’t to say though that I necessarily defend the methods of Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance and the Epsteins.
I find it remarkably hypocritical that Michael Metzler did that very thing with Doug Wilson. Then he turns right around and defends an abusive cult leader like Doug Phillips. If Michael Metzler believes that he’s justified in shining the light on Doug Wilson, calling him a cult leader, etc. he’s got nothing to complain about when others shine the light on Phillips and the Sprouls.
Luke,
It is good that you do not defend the methods of the Epsteins, Vance (Kershaw) and Watchman (Kershaw). I don’t know anyone who does. They are uncredible sources and have long histories of making these type of baseless, slanderous charges against others.
Am I understanding you correctly that you are willing to condemn each of the men in your list as non-Christians and cult leaders based on the specious reporting of the Epsteins, Vance (Kershaw) and Watchman (Kershaw)?
Can you cite any examples of “bad fruit” in those men that does not come from the blogs of the Epsteins, Vance (Kershaw) and Watchman (Kershaw)?
thanks,
Ken
Ken,
It’s so good to see your commitment to condemning
1. destructive behavior
2. bearing false witness
3. making baseless, slanderous charges against others
Thank you for setting such a fine example of that yourself.
David,
It has been a common tactic of the Epsteins and Kershaw to accuse others rather than face their own guilt. This is frequently done under pseudonymns. Your method is similar.
Are you suggesting that the Epsteins and Kershaw have not fabricated many of their allegations?
Ken
Ken,
The Epsteins chronicled their personal experiences with Doug Phillips and BCA. Kershaw chronicled the events of Saint Peter and R.C. Sproul Jr. Both have web sites that they operate under real names, not aliases.
As to your allegations that “This is frequently done under pseudonymns”, this to me seems just pure speculation and suffers from the same “baseless, slanderous charges against others” that you seek to lay to their charge.
I see no reason to conflate the Epsteins with Kershaw. The Epsteins reported their personal experiences which, admittedly, haven’t been adequately substantiated by third parties, whereas Kershaw substantiated his story by the declaratory judgment of a legitimate ecclesiastical body, R.C. Sproul Jr’s presbytery. To me the two appear very different.
I take the Epsteins’ story with a grain of salt because it hasn’t been corroborated by any ecclesiastical body, whereas Kershaw’s story was.
As to Ministry Watchman, or any other blogs operating under aliases, again nothing that I’ve seen has been corroborated by any legitimate ecclesiastical body, and so readers of those blogs should take those articles with a grain of salt. I know that I do.
I’d have to say the same of any blogs being operated under real names, such as Mrs. Binoculars, because it hasn’t been substantiated. If it hasn’t been corroborated by any legitimate ecclesiastical body it should be taken with a grain of salt.
Thanks for seeking my clarification, but I think I’d already made myself very clear. Unless I see some legitimate point in dialoguing with you further about it I won’t be.
David (wink wink),
Kershaw is Watchman and Vance (those are aliases). He is obviously conflated with the Epsteins because they have worked together to create widespread confusion and disseminate falsehoods against Christians. Anyone following this charade knows this. You either refuse to admit it or are uninformed about this whole matter.
Slander is not something to be taken with a “grain of salt.” Only those who colluded with the Epsteins and Kershaw and now wish to avoid punishment would dismiss their blogs so carelessly.
You avoided my single question. Did the Epsteins and Kershaw fabricate any of their allegations? This is not a dialogue.
Ken
Yeah David,
Answer the question. You sound kind of like a Watchman shill. You threw the Epsteins under the bus but are strangely defensive about Kershaw.
What gives?
Brandon G
Ooh, fight! Fight!
“This is not a dialogue.” Right you are Ken! Thanks for pointing out the obvious.
What fun it is slandering one another and making baseless accusations! This is what christian people are supposed to do. What a wonderful example of christianity. Didn’t Jesus say, “The world will know you’re my disciples by the bickering and accusing and slandering you have for one another”? I thought I saw that in the good book somewhere. Thanks everyone for showing me “the better way”. Can I get in on the action too? Oh, thank you. What great fun! Here goes.
It has been a common tactic of Doug Phillips and Matt Chancey to accuse others rather than face their own guilt. This is frequently done under pseudonymns. Doug Phillips is Ken Thomas (that’s an alias). He is obviously conflated with Matt Chancey and the Vision Forum employees because they have worked together to create widespread confusion and disseminate falsehoods against Christians. Anyone following this charade knows this. You either refuse to admit it or are uninformed about this whole matter.
Sounds convincing, doesn’t it? Every bit as convincing as Ken’s story. Maybe if I just keep repeating it over and over again it will become true?
This was fun! Thanks everyone!
Now for Ken and Brandon’s snappy comebacks!
—Sorry everyone. I just couldn’t resist a little sarcasm. Now back to the regularly scheduled slanderfest (Ken and Brandon NEED to have the last word, and I wouldn’t want to take that away from them)—
Mrs. Gingivitis (Jen),
The previous questions by Ken and Brandon really don’t pertain to DP, Matt Chancey and VF. But since you are so obsessed with them, the public record shows those three to be in possession of more fact and credibility than do those who charge them with “ecclesiastical tyrrany.”
What’s your point?
Lloyd
Mrs. G,
If you have some proof that Ministry Watchman and Frank Vance are not aliases for Peter Kershaw and that he did not thrown in with the Epsteins to harm Christians publically, we’d love to hear it.
Carson
Lloyd, my point is obvious, and I wasn’t even trying to make a point about “ecclesiastical tyrrany.” You brought that up. Not me. Ordinarily I wouldn’t touch a straw man. I’ll allow you to provoke me into making a small exception here.
Carson, you sound like a member or former member of that Doug Phillips church. Or maybe a current or former Vision Forum employee or intern? I’m not saying you are. You see it would be wrong for me to make accusations without proof. All I’m saying is that you sound so much like what the Epsteins describe about the Doug Phillips culture. Probably just a coincidence.
My comment yesterday wasn’t meant to be an accusation either. I called it sarcasm, and that’s what it was. I was just trying to show how harmful all these slanderings are, and how easy they are to turn around and apply just as much or more to the accusers.
The bottom line? I’d like to see all this slandering end. Others here seem to be very driven by vengeance. If that’s true then this will just go on forever. It would also reflect very badly on Doug Phillips and what he must be teaching his followers. Not very christian, if you ask me. It also looks like Doug Phillips has much more to lose in this slanderfest than anyone.
Now Carson tosses out a “guilty until proven innocent” proposition. Why would Kershaw or anyone else be so foolish as to accept that kind of offer? I can’t help but notice how similar that sounds to what the Epsteins say they went through. Again, that may just be a coincidence, but “guilty until you prove yourself innocent” sounds a lot like “you’ll pay for this.” Same kind of justice.
I’m starting to gain some new insights on what the Epsteins may have gone through. Didn’t they say something about a kangaroo court? With every one of your comments you’re just causing people like me, people who were sitting on the fence, to question the teachings and church discipline of Doug Phillips. Thanks for that. It’s very helpful.
Mrs. G,
As Ken asked, did the Epsteins and Kershaw fabricate any of their allegations? I would think that is the question Kershaw and Epstein supporters would want to avoid most.
If the answer is no, there should be meaningful evidence to support their charges. Where is it?
If the answer is yes, then they have been slandering dozens of Christians publicly for years.
I want the slandering to end too and you haven’t helped anyone sitting on the fence.
Carson
Hey Carson, would this be an example of “slander”?
Doug Phillips Poses Threat To Lives Of Homeschooling Moms
I ask because all these accusations about slander reminds me of Michael’s accusations about “libel.”
In Michael’s book libel is anything that anyone says about him that he disagrees with. You seem to have the same definition for slander. If you don’t like what someone says about Doug Phillips it’s slander. I don’t think that meets the criteria of the actual definition.
Luke,
I think Karen Campbell, the writer of that blog article, isn’t accurately addressing the Phillips’ quotes she cites. After misreading him, she misrepresents him and then draws some distorted conclusions.
Is that technically slander, I don’t think so. But she’s knocking at the door by saying DP “poses a threat to the lives of homeschooling moms.” Don’t you agree that’s over the top and inflammatory?
Kershaw and the Epsteins have made outrageous public charges against Christian leaders and they have nothing to support it. That’s dishonest, unbiblical and certainly qualifies as slander.
Luke, do you know of any corroborating evidence for a single charge they’ve made? It would be helpful to see the “proof” their defenders keep talking about.
I think Metzler is a troubled and bizarre character. What few posts I’ve read of his are convoluted and paranoid.
Carson
“Luke, do you know of any corroborating evidence for a single charge they’ve made? It would be helpful to see the proof their defenders keep talking about.” Maybe you and your friends should put your questions to one of those “defenders.” That wouldn’t be me. I’m here for the same reason probably everyone else came here. His name is Michael Metzler and his blog is called Poohsthink. That’s the subject of this blog.
I find it more than just a little curious how you and your friends are throwing out these straw men. Nice diversionary tactic. Not very convincing though. Straw men are better left ignored, along with those who use them.
Carson, I would love to know how I have misunderstood Phillips.
Here are the facts:
Phillips is stating that women who face ectopic pregnancies ought to carry the baby to term (can’t happen in the Fallopian tubes) and should be willing to die rather than abort that pregnancy to save her own life.
Ectopic pregnancies ARE life-threatening.
Phillips’ views are pretty much his own. He claims that one has to hold to his views to be 100% pro-life but there isn’t a pro-life leader who holds to those views anywhere. I did my homework!
Lemming homeschoolers will follow Phillps off of any number of cliffs.
Phillips’ teachings on this pose a threat to the life of those homeschooling moms who succumb to his influence.
Libel? I think now. Pointing out the truth…you bet.
Carson,
“I think Karen Campbell, the writer of that blog article, isn’t accurately addressing the Phillips’ quotes she cites. After misreading him, she misrepresents him and then draws some distorted conclusions.”
It is easy to make these sorts of statements but it would be helpful if you would back up your assertions with some fact?
What did Karen misrepresent? What did Karen misread? What distorted conclusions did she draw?
I will be waiting for your evidence to back up your very strong accusations and since you seem to be so concerned about accurately representing people, I KNOW that you will supply me with the examples that you owe to those who are reading.
Doug Phillips says that it is homicide to treat a woman for an ectopic pregnancy which has 0% chance of survival but has GREAT and IMMINENT potential for harm and DEATH to the woman.
Doug Phillips says that women should risk their lives when there is no chance for survival of an ectopic preganncy.
His advice goes against the Journal of Medicine and borders on criminal and if he were a doctor dispensing these statements, he would suffer censure and even loss of his license to practice medicine. As a lawyer, he should know better.
Luke,
I, like others at this blog, were drawn here in response to the shameful collusion that occurred some time ago between Peter Kershaw (aka Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance), Mark and Jennifer Epstein and Michael Metzler. Nothing I’ve said is diversionary and I’ve made no straw men arguments. I have asked if there were any of their defenders who could support their malicious claims with proof. All have failed to respond thus far. I would like to see all of their blogs and activities cease because they have done real harm to many Christian people.
Carson
Karen and Corrie,
The citations of DP in Karen’s article don’t support her conclusions. She accuses him of views he did not state in those particular quotes. If she has other examples of him saying what she claims then post them and her point will be proven accurate.
Furthermore, I have watched you two blog all over the place in support of Jennifer Epstein. Her cause is 100% bogus. She is a malicious liar and a disruption in every situation she has gone into. Now her own deviousness has backfired on her.
Like her, I think you two seem to be very agressive towards local churches, towards men, towards other homeschoolers not like you and towards authority in general. I don’t know what motivations drive you but your choice of Jen as an ally was a huge mistake.
If you want to keep throwing in with her attacking DP that’s your business. He does seem to be legalisitic on certain issues and I don’t doubt that he may say things that need to be challenged and corrected. It shouldn’t come from Jennifer Epstein and likely will be just an ineffective coming from you two.
Carson
Luke,
Metzler has been a real train wreck and so have others he conspired with. That’s what I thought this blog was discussing?
Brandon
Carson, I am not sure where you get the idea that I have “blogged all over the placed in support of Jen Epstein.” In fact, I have gone on record as saying that while I believe Phillips did spiritually abuse the Epstein family, I do not agree with Jen’s methods. If you have read at all on either of my blogs, you would know that I publicly asked her to stop leaving comments on either of my blog because I believed her to be contentious. She also supported kinism and I would not tolerate that.
Again, I gave sufficient links to Phillips’ teachings on women and ectopic pregnancy to show what he said. I also took his teachings to an expert on pro-life beliefs and rhetoric.
And now about your accusations against me and your statements that I am aggressive towards men and authority….my husband will find this laughable! I suspect that you cannot handle any discussion about spiritual abuse or any genuinely Bible assessment of some of the tripe that is passed off these days as “male authority.” True leadership and authority in the church looks nothing at all like what these men prescribe. YOu owe me an apology for YOUR slanderous remarks all given with no proof whatsoever.
“It shouldn’t come from Jennifer Epstein and likely will be just an ineffective coming from you two.”
One more thought, Carson.
I think it depends on how you measure success. I hear from both men and women every week who thank me profusely for not being afraid to tell the truth about the patriocentrists. In fact, the more questions we ask of them and the more the word gets out about the heresies they promote, the more people are avoiding these ministries. It really has nothing to do with whether or not Doug Phillips pays any attention to us at all. All I am asking is for people to become Bereans and really pay attention to what these people actually teach and how they actually live.
“Furthermore, I have watched you two blog all over the place in support of Jennifer Epstein. Her cause is 100% bogus. She is a malicious liar and a disruption in every situation she has gone into. Now her own deviousness has backfired on her.”
Carson,
You are a day late and a dollar short. Obviously you really aren’t reading what I write that closely and that means any thing you have to say about me and Karen is nonsense. Go check out Jen’s blog for just a little proof of this. Then go check out True Womanhood where I confronted Jen. Then check out the link given above to Lynn’s blog. Sheesh.
I am the one who has confronted Jen for MONTHS and has taken on her duplicitousness. Please, get up to speed before you start making false accusations.
Also, you have falsely accused Karen of misrepresenting what Doug said about ectopic pregnancy. Again, why not just give us some firsthand quotes instead of all this subterfuge?
“Like her, I think you two seem to be very agressive towards local churches, towards men, towards other homeschoolers not like you and towards authority in general. I don’t know what motivations drive you but your choice of Jen as an ally was a huge mistake.”
What in the world are you talking about? Carson, more unsubstantiated comments. It seems that this is a problem and pattern for you. You should be very careful you can back up your allegations with facts and it really seems like you are not up to speed on much of anything at this point.
What motivates me? Truth. I have always stated that Jen might be guilty of all that Doug has accused her of. I have learned the truth and I have stated so repeatedly.
Aggressive towards local churches? Towards men? Towards authority in general? Example, please? Proof? I guess you are above making truthful assertions. Carson, you are lying and you should really be ashamed of yourself. All I did is ask you for some proof that Karen is misrepresenting Doug and you went all ad hominem abusive on me. Doesn’t do much for your credibility.
“If you want to keep throwing in with her attacking DP that’s your business. He does seem to be legalisitic on certain issues and I don’t doubt that he may say things that need to be challenged and corrected. It shouldn’t come from Jennifer Epstein and likely will be just an ineffective coming from you two.”
I have been calling on Jen publicly to apologize to Doug Phillips. I have confronted her about her lies about this situation. I have NOT thrown in with Jen and that is a very silly assertion.
In fact, some big patrio names had befriended her during this time but insisted that if she was going to post on their blog that she would have to use a fake name in order not to make Doug mad.
Really, if you would have bothered to ask me, I probably know more about the Epstein situation than most, even Doug.
And why shouldn’t we confront him about his dangerous views on ectopic pregnancy and calling women who get treated for ectopic pregnancies “murderers”? Who is better suited to confront him? You?
At least I can be objective, Carson. At least I can side with Doug concerning the problem with Jen Epstein and say so publicly and still find his teachings to be biblically lacking.
Really, if you would like to know the truth before you start accusing people, you should email them and do a little research first.
Carson,
I was just thinking.
Do you have a problem with women? 😉
What is good for the goose and all that……
Corrie,
The strongest and brightest people in my life are women. Their methods are very different than yours and so are their results.
I don’t have the time or need to trawl back through all your comments at Jen’s site (and elsewhere) but you threw in with her for many months, championing her twisted cause. You’ve offered no public apologies or retractions for that. Or I have missed those too?
Karen,
“patriocentrist” isn’t a word. It’s an idea that conspiracy theorists invent for misguided causes.
Real spiritual abuse is something I care about very much, not the contrivances you and Jen have conjured up. You obviously are trying to start your own counter movement by tearing down others.
I apologize for nothing, your methods are toxic. You are every bit the bully you accuse DP of being. I doubt your husband does much laughing at all.
Carson
“Corrie,
The strongest and brightest people in my life are women. Their methods are very different than yours and so are their results.
I don’t have the time or need to trawl back through all your comments at Jen’s site (and elsewhere) but you threw in with her for many months, championing her twisted cause. You’ve offered no public apologies or retractions for that. Or I have missed those too?”
Carson,
Or is that “Brandon G”? Are you the Brandon G, Elizabeth’s husband? I am confused. Could you at least answer a couple of my questions? Could you explain just who you really are? Or is this just another one of the silly games that the Phillips’ sychopants like to play?
I have no idea what you are talking about nor where you are coming from.
You don’t need to go back that far on Jen’s site. It is clear that you are not really reading what I am saying or you would never say such things.
Are you now going to tell me what I didn’t say? Anyone following this drama would be able to say that I did a MAJOR 180 a few months back and I have been one of Jen’s biggest detractors ever since. I have so offered public apologies. I have nothing to retract because I never made any assertions and I constantly left open the very real possibility that Jen is lying and Doug is right about his accusations against her. You missed those, too.
I really do not know how to talk to a person like you who refuses to even do his research before he goes off half-cocked.
You don’t have to “trawl” back very far at all. Sheesh. You really look foolish since this whole thing has been so very public for so very long. I am embarrassed for you.
http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2008/03/31/let-the-women-be-silent/#comment-14507
One of Jen’s last blog posts, I made several comments. Go to TW and you will see months ago where I confronted Jen publicly. I have made comments all over the place and you still refuse to do just a little looking but you will continue to falsely accuse me?
Also, your continued hateful put-downs of women are very noticeable. You can’t deal with the issues so you insult people. That is not how someone who claims the high moral ground should go about his business. You have yet to answer ONE question but you continue to prattle on about things you know not.
Brandon G./Carson/SFU/Whoever you are:
Here is just one of my many posts about the Jen situation. This is in the same thread that I linked to in my previous post. There are more just like this.
At least I will try to clear up your misinterpretations with fact without resorting to logical fallacy.
“Corrie Says:
April 15, 2008 at 2:54 pm
To all,
This is not about having personal issues with Jen. This is NOT personal. This is about truth.
“Corrie, is anything here not the truth?”
Yes, Jen, some of it is the truth. Of course. There has been a lot of truth spoken on this blog.
IMHO, you should have never come forward with your story, though. You should have just gone away quietly and tried to live a quiet life, tending to your children and your marriage.
“Karen is getting her “gossip” from the same source you are, Corrie, and that is exactly what it is. It is not the truth.”
So, are you calling yourself a liar? Weird. As far as I know, you were not gossiping about yourself to me, were you? Karen knows you and you have been telling her the same things you told me? Again, weird! Why are you upset with both of us?
For the record, I do not know who Karen is. I do know that she is not Karen Campbell.
“If you have any information that is true that would shed additional light on my story, you are free to do so, but to come here and make a broad, sweeping statement that is in direct antithesis to everything you’ve said in the last year, without giving a shred of evidence, tells me a whole lot. I’m sorry to see someone who was one of my best friends do this.”
I am sorry, too. I really am. I have bent over backwards to help you and I still will. But, I have to be true to myself, too. I cannot sit quiet and pretend nor can I sit here and lie. My track record speaks loudly about this.
I do not want to hang your dirty laundry out for the public. It would not be right nor fitting nor good for your children.
And what have I said in the last year? I focused on the teachings and I have always reserved the possibility that you were wrong and that BCA was telling the truth. I wasn’t there at BCA and I wasn’t privy (at the time) to all the facts.
While you did not receive due process, you were certainly not a victim. I am not saying that BCA/Phillips and Co. are lily-white and completely innocent. I am saying that I can totally see why it ended up the way it did. Let us just say that I have empathy for the leaders at BCA.
Thank you, Jen, for allowing my posts to go through.”
“I, like others at this blog, were drawn here in response to the shameful collusion that occurred some time ago between Peter Kershaw (aka Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance), Mark and Jennifer Epstein and Michael Metzler.”
Carson, you are quite right to demand proof, as you have done repeatedly. I ask you then, where is your proof for the above accusation? The only “proof” I see is your personal speculations couched in baseless accusations.
Comment #133-
David said it very well.
Luke,
Kershaw and the Epsteins have maintained a two year assault against numerous Christian organizations without presenting one piece of proof. Why would you call that speculation? Have you not read their blogs? Verify what I’ve said for yourself.
Carson
Carson, please stop talking in circles and stop being evasive. Let’s step through your accusations, starting with these two.
1. Where’s your proof for “the shameful collusion that occurred some time ago between Peter Kershaw, Mark and Jennifer Epstein and Michael Metzler.”
2. Where’s your proof that Kershaw is “aka Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance”?
If you have no proof, aren’t you every bit as guilty of the slander that you’d like to be able to accuse them of?
Luke,
This is a shameful – – you have said it and that is how it should gotten about!!!!!!!!
All this people are being circles
If person A is as guilty as person B >>>>Kershaw can’t be person C
Can HE Can HE ????
There is no proof of this and Watchmin had said so. Period
Bob Mank
I don’t care what they call it — the pro-life physician position is that when tubal ectopic pregnancies don’t spontaneously abort, they must be removed surgically to save the life of the mother. And these are extremely pro-life physicians we are talking about. As usual, Doug Phillips wasn’t careful in his statements.
http://www.prolifephysicians.org/rarecases.htm
“However, if through careful follow-up it is determined that the ectopic pregnancy does not spontaneously resolve and the mother’s symptoms worsen, surgery may become necessary to save the mother’s life. The procedure to remove the ectopic pregnancy may not kill the unborn child at all, because the unborn child has likely already deceased by the time surgery because necessary. But even if not, the procedure is necessary to save the mother’s life, and the death of the unborn baby is unavoidable and unintentional.”</i<
Phillips:
“WHEREAS those theories which justify the killing of the unborn child on the basis of the circumstances of conception (as in the case of rape and incest), or even the life of the mother (ectopic pregnancies) are completely false because they are based on unbiblical and humanistic ethics, unbiblical definitions of “self defense” theory, and a rejection of the personhood of the child; and Continuing Relevance of All of Scripture.”
Whereas SOME tubal ectopics require surgery, and
Whereas SOME of these unborn children might still be alive when the procedure is done, and
Whereas NONE of those tubal pregnancies has a chance of surviving otherwise, and
Whereas the health and life of the mother is obviously endangered by such pregnancies that could NEVER survive,
THEN, for Phillips to categorically imply ALL ectopic pregnancy surgery is wrong when he said “completely false” IS a remark that WOULD threaten the physical health and perhaps the life of a mother who doesn’t spontaeously abort her tubal pregnancy, one that is BOUND to NOT survive ANYWAY.
It is a sorrowful thing, but it cannot be helped, sometimes, to have to end a tubal ectopic pregnancy with surgery.
I agree with Karen Campbell on this one. And the pro-life physicians, too, linked to in the previous comment.
So Phillips is saying he thinks both the tubal pregnancy should die (as it is bound to) and mother should wait until her tube ruptures before she has surgery?
Or does he want the mother to have her tube rupture and then face sickness and almost certain death?
Which is it — in those cases? It would be either one choice, or the other, for his wording leaves no other options.
Would one of you who are obvious supporters of Doug Phillips please find this out — when a woman has a tubal pregnancy that does not spontaneously abort — does he want surgery only after the tube has ruptured, or does he want no surgery, even when the tube has ruptured?
Just curious.
I repeat my question — of the tubal pregnancies which do not spontaneously abort, but continue to grow where they are, which action or inaction would Phillips find morally correct —
To allow the fallopian tube to rupture, and only then allow surgery,
Or — just to do nothing?
Bob Mank, most of your comment is incoherent. However, I do think I get this much. “If person A is as guilty as person B >>>>Kershaw can’t be person C”
No, Im not saying that. Let me state once again what my thinking is.
1. There appears to be no evidence to support the accusation that there was “collusion that occurred some time ago between Peter Kershaw, Mark and Jennifer Epstein and Michael Metzler.” If there were proof why won’t Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. etc. produce it? We can only assume there is no proof, and without proof these accusations are nothing but mere speculation. It’s risky and foolish to make accusations based on assumption and speculation. It’s also slander, or in this case, libel.
2. There appears to be no evidence to support the accusation that Kershaw is “aka Ministry Watchman, Frank Vance.” If there were proof why won’t Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. etc. produce it? We can only assume there is no proof, and without proof these accusations are nothing but mere speculation. It’s risky and foolish to make accusations based on assumption and speculation. It’s also slander, or in this case, libel.
3. It’s hypocritical of these Doug Phillips’ defenders to allege “slander” on the part of Kershaw, Epstein, Ministry Watchman, Metzer, and then turn right around and slander them for “collusion” and the use of specific aliases, when there is no proof. If there were proof why won’t Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. etc. produce it? And I say this as an outspoken critic of Metzler. Metzler was busted for using aliases, but as far as anyone knows it only happened on Doug Wilson’s blog. Could it have happened elewhere? Yes, and odds are high it has. But there is no proof of it, and without proof I don’t think it’s right to say anything more than what we can be certain of. Furthermore, even if Metzler were guilty of using numerous aliases, how does that prove anything about the others that have been accused here?
4. Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. etc. are engaging in a classic “pot calling the kettle black” situation. They demand “proof” and yet they refuse to provide any proof for any of their own accusations. They cry, “Slander!” and yet fail to see how their own accusations, absent any proof, are slander. They are slanderers calling other people “Slanderers!”
The whole thing is absurd, but at least Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. etc. have come to the right place to make a display of their double standards and hypocrisy. That is, after all, what so many of the comments about Michael Metzler have been about here. Double standards and hypocrisy.
Luke, comment 171 is worth reading several times.
And I repeat my question, especially to Carson, who said this:
“The citations of DP in Karen’s article don’t support her conclusions. She accuses him of views he did not state in those particular quotes. If she has other examples of him saying what she claims then post them and her point will be proven accurate.”
Carson, Phillips said theories which justify the killing of unborn to save the life of the mother are completely false.
Ectopic tubal pregnancies fall into this category.
There are pro-life physicians — see link in comment 176 — who say that in the circumstances where a tubal ectopic pregnancy does not resolve itself, that all the unborn will not survive, and that surgery needs to be performed to save the life of the mother.
Doug Phillips says that what the pro-life physicians have said is false.
So I want to know, and especially from Carson, who said Karen’s citations didn’t support her article —
Would Doug Phillips approve of surgery only after the tube ruptures (or severe infection has set in), or would he say no surgery at all?
Those are his only options, given what he said that all theories about ending the life of the unborn are false.
Either way, what he said, if followed, endangers the life of the mother, because after anything ruptures inside the abdominal cavity there are often severe complications, which could lead to death if not immediately dealt with, or even if they are immediately dealt with, death could still occur.
But I am curious as to what his advice would be after a tubal pregnancy (that has not resolved itself) progresses to the point of an internal rupture and hemorrhage.
Luke,
It’s time to own up to your own game. I asked you at #136:
(1) Am I understanding you correctly that you are willing to condemn each of the men in your list as non-Christians and cult leaders based on the specious reporting of the Epsteins, Vance (Kershaw) and Watchman (Kershaw)?
(2) Can you cite any examples of “bad fruit” in those men that does not come from the blogs of the Epsteins, Vance (Kershaw) and Watchman (Kershaw)?
Rather than answer two straight forward questions you have carried on a charade about needing proof of Vance and Watchman’s identity.
Who’s being evasive here? I would appreciate answers to my questions rather than continually posing more diversionary questions.
Ken
Ken, I’ll withdraw my former comment #135. What I said was inappropriate, particularly since I had no evidence to back it up. I do see the wisdom in David’s comment #139 about the need to take these various blogs “with a grain of salt.” I was convicted by what he said, and I should have retracted that comment sooner. I do so now and I apologize for it.
Blogs of any kind often don’t qualify as proof or evidence. Quite often they’re just a person’s personal opinions and little more. We may personally agree or disagree with the opinions expressed, but that hardly qualifies as proof or evidence of anything.
Please accept my apology.
What Doug Phillips has said must mean he teaches that an ectopic tubal pregnancy that doesn’t stop itself should rupture, and until then, nothing should be done to stop the rupture, because all theories about pregnancy termination, even ectopic tubal pregnancies, are false and unbiblical.
I agree with Karen Campbell’s article about what Doug Phillips has said. That’s a very dangerous thing to have happen, and could be fatal.
24 hours and no response yet from Ken Thomas?
Well I’ll also extend the same apology to Brandon G, Carson, and anyone else that my comment #135 offended.
Will any of you, or hopefully all of you, accept my apology?
Luke,
I accept your apology for the comments made in #135 however, the offense was not against me but against those you named. It is their names and reputations that were impugned.
Ken
Luke, I commend you sir! That was impressive. Very biblical and a very good example for others here to follow. I hope your example will have a positive effect on Ken Thomas, Carson, Brandon G. and the others.
If Ken and the others just ignore your good example, or if they just continue slandering others without any proof, and if they just continue ignoring their obligation to either furnish proof or admit they don’t have any proof, it will confirm in my mind that Doug Phillips models vengeance to his followers. This has all been very helpful to me in sorting some things out.
Ken, since you’ve been gracious to accept Luke’s apology, I’d appreciate your giving some clarification on this statement you made, “Rather than answer two straight forward questions you have carried on a charade about needing proof of Vance and Watchman’s identity.”
If I’m understanding your position, you’ve made the personal determination that anyone who asks you and your friends for the proof to back up your accusations is engaging in “a charade.” Therefore, you believe you don’t need to furnish proof of anything, and you’re free to make serious accusations without any proof. Does that accurately describe your position?
If not then please explain this apparent inconsistency. Why is it not a charade when you and your friends ask for proof, but when anyone else asks you for proof it’s “a charade”?
Mrs. G,
The Jen’s Gems and Ministry Watchman blogs contain dozens of articles which rebuke people, ministries, churches and other organizations. I assume you have read those blogs? If you have, then do you agree there are an abundance of very serious claims and accusations made at those sites?
Do you find any evidence (proof) at those sites that support those claims and accusations?
That’s what this discussion is about, please participate.
Lloyd
Mrs. Gingivitis,
“… it will confirm in my mind that Doug Phillips models vengeance to his followers.”
Who on this blog is a follower of Doug Phillips? Who has modelled vengeance? How would this supposed vengeance be blamed on Doug Phillips? What evidence do you have for those claims?
Brandon G.
Luke, I applaud you too. Well done.
Lynn said, “Luke, comment 171 is worth reading several times.” I’ll second that.
Lloyd, Brandon, your non-responsive replies are too predictable.
Mrs. G, I hope you’re not really expecting any answers to your excellent questions. You might be waiting a very long time. As you can already see, you should only expect evasions by pointless and endless questioning, interrogation style.
The Doug devotees have a bad habit of badgering others with questions, but never answering any questions themselves. They don’t seem to recognize how bad that makes them look, and they don’t seem to even care. They’re also quick to slander people and ignore all requests for proof, even though they’re very demanding for proof themselves, at least if it has anything to do with their Beloved Leader. It’s not just an “apparent inconsistency” Mrs. G. It’s blatant hypocrisy.
Lynn, you too shouldn’t expect that any Doug devotees will ever answer your excellent questions here.
I remember seeing some intense discussions on your blog over a year ago about Matt Chancey’s “kinist conspiracy between Little Geneva, the Epsteins, Frank Vance and Ministry Watchman.” Here’s a link to one article I found, http://graceindelible.blogspot.com/2007/01/discussion-of-john-jackson-is-still.html I think you may have had some other related articles too?
Your article and some of the comments talk about Chancey’s blog being entirely “political.” That’s what it looked like to me too. Nothing biblical about it. Nothing even logical about it. Just dirty politics. Accusations founded on logical fallacies like guilt by association, built on speculation, based on assumptions, grounded upon innuendo, predicated on fabrications. Just a house of cards.
Some people just never learn from their mistakes. So now we all get to be subjected to a new twist on that tired old National Inquirer-like house of cards conspiracy? Same song, different chorus, minus the slant on “kinist connections.” Being called on it for proof all they can do is shuck and jive.
David, I wasn’t expecting an answer to my question, and yes, I did blog about mrsbinoculars, and I still agree with what I wrote. They should be ashamed of themselves. “A house of cards” pretty much describes it.
I’m not inclined to revisit that issue, though.
I came here because someone wrote me privately and asked me to look at the link. No, “they” didn’t ask me to leave comments. I did that on my own.
I’m not going to engage in talk about who has what internet ID, either. I’d rather talk about what is publicly known and can be publicly discussed.
Really, all this speculation w/out proof, repented of on one side, but not the other, reminds me of all the speculation that the B.A. in this article is Brian Abshire:
http://batteredsheep.com/pca_02.html
You know, the article about the shill bidding, the one where a pastor “B.A” was allegedly implicated in the illegal activity of shill bidding. The guy who wrote the article isn’t anonymous, and the B.A. he talks about has a LOT of similarites to Brian Abshire, who has written for Vision Forum, you know?
But far be it from me to say this is proof. I would not dare act like Matt Chancey and engage in such wild speculation. This is just a comparison, that’s all.
Whovever “B.A” is, if he did what the man said he did, he should be ashamed of himself, and I hope he has repented by now of his illegal activities, if indeed he committed such.
Lynn,
You are absolutely correct about the unwarranted speculation in that article. The story is very similar to the Epsteins blogs and Ministry Watchman. The person gives a very one sided account and there’s no way to substantiate any of the details. Note also how it started with Eyres original sin and bad judgement (the Ebay scandal) which somehow turned into him being a victim. You are correct that there’s no proof in the article either, just wild speculation. I do hope the author repented.
Thanks for that link.
Art
“The person gives a very one sided account” is a specious argument. We all give “one sided accounts,” and we do so every time we have a story to tell about any conflict between ourselves and someone else.
It’s presumptous at best, and dishonest at worst, for any one person to propose that they could give “both sides of the story.” Who would believe it? Only a fool. “After I tell you my side of the story I’ll then tell you the other guy’s side of the story.” Ridiculous! That still isn’t giving both sides of the story. In reality it’s one guy’s interpretation of both sides of the story.
Lynn, the point you’re making is apparently lost on Art. I get the point though, and I totally agree with you.
“B.A.” could be any number of PCA pastors. It could also be that David Eyre didn’t even use people’s real initials for his story. If anyone is alleging that the “B.A.” in David Eyre’s story is Brian Abshire, all they’re doing is speculating, unless they’ve first received confirmation from David Eyre himself.
You’ve used an excellent example to illustrate how wrong, and potentially harmful it is, to make public accusations based on nothing but assumptions and speculation. It’s also libelous.
I’m not naive enough to now expect that Ken Thomas, Brandon G, Carson, or any of the rest, because of Lynn’s fine illustration, will now retract their earlier baseless accusations and issue an apology. Nor am I naive enough to expect that they would do so because of the fine example that Luke has set for them. Rather, I fully expect they and their friends to only use my own comment here as some rhetorical basis for, as Mrs. G. put it, some more “snappy comebacks”.
I know very well that Art turned my comment on its head, and with that, I’m done with this discussion. Thanks, David.
“… to illustrate how wrong, and potentially harmful it is, to make public accusations based on nothing but assumptions and speculation. It’s also libelous.”
David, this is precisely what many of us are trying to say about the acitivities of Ministry Watchman (aka Peter Kershaw aka Frank Vance and numerous other aliases) and the Epsteins. They have made harmful accusations, assumptions and speculations at their websites for which they offer no proof or verification. You are correct, that is known as libel.
Art
Art,
Where is your “proof or verification” of “Ministry Watchman” is “(aka Peter Kershaw aka Frank Vance and numerous other aliases)”?
You and your friends have been repeatedly asked to furnish proof for your accusations. Yet you and your friends ignore your obligation to provide any proof, while you continue beating on the same drum, as though it were an irrefutable fact. Clearly, it is refutable since you obviously have no proof.
Your behavior strikes me as being very malicious, and you obviously have some sort of personal vendetta against Kershaw.
David,
If Watchman and Vance haven’t done anything wrong, why is it malicious to state that those are aliases for Peter Kershaw? Are you admitting that the activities of Ministry Watchman and Frank Vance are sinful and shameful? Are you conceding that whoever the person is using those as aliases should be punished? If not, why is it malicious to associate Kershaw with MW and Vance?
You “obviously” have a personal vendetta against Doug Phillips. Where is your proof of his guilt toward the Epsteins? You and your friends ignore the obligation to provide proof while continuing to beat the same drum as if it were irrefutable fact. Clearly it is refutable since you have no proof.
Art
David,
Can you provide any corroborating proof for any accusation made by the Epsteins against Doug Phillips?
There are several people at this site that seem convinced he is guilty of wrong doing.
Mark S.
Art asks, “If Watchman and Vance haven’t done anything wrong, why is it malicious to state that those are aliases for Peter Kershaw?” Because you have no proof.
“If not why is it malicious to associate Kershaw with MW and Vance?” Same answer. Your continuing to make those accusations without any proof can only be construed as a malicious act against someone that you apparently have a personal vendatta against.
You allege that I’m “continuing to beat the same drum as if it were irrefutable fact”. No, Art. I’ve made no allegations against Doug Phillips, nor have I defended the Epsteins, Watchman, or Vance. Obviously many of the allegations they’ve made against Phillips HAVE been refuted, and some by Phillips himself on the Vision Forum site and his BCA church site too. Because of that, and other factors too that I’ve already stated, I’ve gone so far as to say, “I take the Epsteins’ story with a grain of salt” (see comment 139), and I said the same thing about the Ministry Watchman site.
You and your friends (apparently Mark S. now too) seem bound and determined to compel me to defend the Epsteins, Watchman, and Vance. No thanks. I’m not interested. However, I do find it disturbing that you keep attacking Kershaw in such a malicious fashion. If you think that helps make Phillips look good you’d be sadly mistaken. You’re only hurting his case.
David,
You’re confusing yourself with your own double talk. You’ve made a variety of allegations against Phillips, such as:
“This wouldn’t be the first time that Doug Phillips’ ecclesiastical mafia boys posted comments like these. Nice job though fellas of showing us just how corrupt a business Vision Forum really is.”
“Has Doug Phillips ever set an example of peacemaking and being at peace with all men? Is he even capable of turning the other cheek? Not from what I’ve seen. To me it appears that Doug Phillips is just all about vengeance.”
If you think that helps make Kershaw look good, you’re sadly mistaken. You’re only hurting his case.
Art
Art quotes David, “To me it appears that Doug Phillips is just all about vengeance.” I agree with David’s assessment, and I’ll add to it by saying that it’s obvious that Phillips’ devoted followers are “just all about vengeance” too.
David, I know you mean well, but isn’t it time to give it up? You’re not dealing with sane, rational, or even semi-intelligent young men. You’re dealing with foolish boys in men’s suits.
Every statement that anyone makes they turn on its head (I’m sure they’ll do it with my comment too). They have yet to say anything original, intelligent or logical. They just take anyone’s statements and turn them around in the same juvenile manner as children on a playground. “Oh yeah? Well you’re a DOUBLE INFINITY poophead!”
Even after the significant admissions you’ve made David, it’s still not enough. What Art and his pals demand is total domination and complete victory. They demand this because Doug Phillips is the perfect specimen of a man. Doug Phillips is infallible and anyone who won’t sing the praises of Saint Doug shall be destroyed.
David, you’ll never have any success talking any sense into Art and his pals. Their extreme bitterness, and their worship of Saint Doug, fuels their vendetta. In their world, two wrongs really do make a right. Bitterness and man-worship thoroughly blinds people to any sense of propriety.
I have to wonder if Art’s attack on Peter Kershaw has anything to do with the fact that Peter Kershaw hosts all the documents related to the defrocking of the ecclesiastical criminal RC Sproul Jr. on his website?
Does anyone here have proof that Kershaw is not Ministry Watchman? That would obviously silence those who claim he is. You can’t call what Art is saying an “attack” if it’s true.
Mark S.
Mark S is right. It’s true because it’s true. You the ones Jonathan and Mrs. Gingervitis and David who need proof to say it’s not true. You need to silence. Kershaw is Watchman and he is fuckhead. The RPCGA is fuckhead too. There is no proof that they are not.
Wow Bob T. I’m speachless. Your retort has countered everyones arguments. I’m sure Tim Dick is proud to have someone like you going to bat for him…….
Sorry, should read “speechless” not “speachless”
Leave Tim Dick off. Be cause this isn’t about Tim Dick. Worthy discussion has the elusive definition. This is about Peter Kershaw the Frank Vance fuckhead. He is a skanky crack whore. Where is the proof that isn’t it true? The RPCGA is a skanky crack whore denominassion. Where is the proof it’s not true? I know it’s true be cause I know. If you can’t see it then you don’t know be cause you don’t know. It’s as obvious as the nose in my head. If you don’t agree you need to silence because you don’t know. I know. This is worthy discussion.
Oops. I mean it’s as obvious as the nose in my face.
okay, you an obvious troll. c’ya
Jonathan,
More than being just a troll, Bob T. sounds like a mentally deranged person. That shouldn’t come as any surprise. This blog is, after all, about the “Life In The Wood” of a mentally deranged person. A blog like this is bound to attract a few crazies, and Bob T. is far from the only person to have posted some zany comments as of late.
Luke,
Now don’t start-up that double speak again. Do you have any proof of Bob T’s derangement. If not then you need to repent of this slander and come clean about being part of the conspiracy of slander aimed at godly men…..;-)
Jonathan
You are right and Luke doesn’t know what he say be cause he doesn’t know. Does he have proof that I am deranged. I know that I am not deranged be cause I know. I am arranged. I am not deranged be cause I know these slandererings that godly men are not good. They must silence.
Sheesh! That was quite an imbecilic bit ‘o viturerating (for about the last 70 comments!), and Bob T’s comments were just the icing on the cake.
Thanks Bob T. for helping confirm what a bunch of twisted crackpots you and your friends are. No more “f-bombs” please!
To get the topic back on track again (in case anyone even cares about the topic anymore), did anybody else notice that Metzler took all his articles offline? I haven’t visited Pooh’s Think in a long time (or this blog either), so I don’t know exactly when he did this, but this time there’s no “under construction” notice.
What’s up with this? Has Metzler finally dealt with his fanatical bitterness of Doug Wilson? If so, then my prayers for Metzler have been answered and he can finally move on with his life.
To the webmaster of this blog: Let me suggest that if Metzler really has gone away for good (and that has yet to be confirmed) that you consider taking this blog offline, as well. It may no longer serve a useful purpose. That would be the gentlemanly response. I wouldn’t delete it though. It would be smart to keep it in reserve, just in case.
Interesting. I haven’t been to Pooh’s Think either for quite a while.
Google’s cache from August 13 shows Michael’s blog after he’d already taken his articles off line. So he did that some time prior to the 13th.
If you go to Pooh’s Think today he’s got some strange links under his blog roll totally unrelated to anything he’d had on Pooh’s Think before. It does look like he’s trying to flush all memory of Pooh’s Think.
I’d look for Pooh’s Think to disappear entirely soon. Maybe it’s just temporary though?
Like Matt, I’m hoping Michael has finally dealt with his bitterness issues with Pastor Wilson, but knowing Michael I have my doubts. Michael isn’t known for being forgiving, or to be able to admit, even to just himself, when he’s been wrong.
Does anyone have any idea what Michael’s up too?
Luke,
It may be that you and I are the only people in the world who even give a passing thought to Pooh anymore; and as for me, my level of interest is about a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10. I think it’s safe to say that no one seems to really care anymore.
If I have an interest remaining at all it’s mainly an interest in seeing it all wound down for good. I’m glad to see that, from all appearances, that’s finally happened. This sad and pitiful freak show, starring Michael Metzler, and the cadre of crazies he attracts, is (hopefully) over.
Michael, if you ever do read this blog again, please know that you’ve been in my prayers and that I hope you’ll some day find some peace for your tormented soul. It starts with forgiveness.
Okay, I think I have my answer to whether or not Metzler reads this blog. Here’s what it now says on the brand new Pooh page:
I apologize for the inconvience. My web site has been hacked (gee, what for?) and so for now I am just throwing up this generic page as explanation. I am sure we will have the database back up and running before too long, although this is not an urgent project of mine. I plan to continue working on my book again in the Fall and hope to have the first volume completed by January. My new cell phone number is 858-248-2671, email: michaelmetzler@cox.net, and we are still here in Cardiff by the Sea.
Hi kids, I’m a former FBI agent that works for the Internal Revenue Sevice, who perpetuate my “ministry” which thrives on financing my affluent lifestyle, primarily targeted at Midas Touch a.k.a. Franklin Sanders (gold-man) and Jerry Johnson (sproul-man), whom the Order uses to their advantage. I drop mad HAMMERS, and use highly sophisticated technology to intercept the instant messages of sectarian religious clerics in Moscow, Idaho. Leithart, you silly little man, it was ME that SPLOTCHED your crypto-Catholic cult. Me and ‘the attorney’, at least.
ANYWAY…..
I worked in tandem WITH the IRS to destroy the livelihood of countless tax-protesting Calvinists, duped by my duplicitious double-talk about half-way covenant holiness (I had a VERITABLE time doing it, hardy-har). They bought my truly Reformed swindle, as did that dumbass Harry Seabrook (Harry you dumbass, I forwarded your every e-mail to Ovid Need, Matt’s daddy)!
But Ovid, don’t forget, I’ve been screwing you over too. 1-540-622-2525 is how you can tell Mr. Need about MY Need for double-dealing. The Talbots think I’m a real swinger, holding the semi-Pelagians feet to the fire in the CREC. Randy’s just a pawn, and Ken little more than a pooch I pet from time to time.
I used to be in Marines, until I got a promotion to Grand Master of the Ancient and Accepted York Rite of Grand Lodge Freemasonry. I repented though, and repentance is orthodoxy (not to be confused with orthoPROXY, or orthoCHICKENPOXY).
Those dupes. If only they knew my conspiracy-racism-antisemitism fetish was due to the fact that I’m working for the FBI, and am long time pals with Richard Kelly Hoskins and Ted Weiland (don’t tell Pastor Jason, cause Sara may tell her daddy). Yes, that’s right -just file a Freedom of Information Act and get the low-down on my duplicity.
I love telling Greg Herman about how Ms. Epstein had sex with her father when she was eighteen. Sex is what I’m all about. I call it religious liberty. And I love liberty, especially if it means getting drunk, wasted, and on welfare in Missouri. When I would vacation in Alabama, Jenny-poo and I would have sex all the time. Why do you think Mark divorced her?
I confess, like Westminster, that I’m a complete and total narcissitic asshole that believes that the only Christians left in this world are my friends, and once you cross me (that means YOU, McReynolds!), you’re not really a Christian (after all, Peter has the keys).
Christies, Bebes, Constonguays, Windhams, Sprouls…sinners in the hands of an angry god, because as Blessed St. Spurgeon says, you MUST be in communion with the See of Peter for your salvation!
I’ve allied myself, like Henry VIII did with Cranmer, with a (FORMER) shepherd, a Reformed Episcopal one to be exact (an odd bedfellow if there ever was one) that used to pastor a small church in Southwest Virginia. He’s my yes man, since I love getting my syphilius-infected behind kissed by Reformed clerics (little does he know what I think of his Federal Visionist HERESY). I’m such a narcissist, I operate countless blogs while befriending the very people I blog about! Oh wait, maybe that’s Frank…or Henry..or one of my other multiple-personalities I developed while I was a getting molested as an orphan.
I wrecked his church, just like I used to wreck Calvary Chapel churches ten years ago, and international banking cartels before that! I almost wrecked a Reformed Baptist Church in Bristol, TN, but that’s neither here nor there. Stan Postan has no idea, but I wrecked Rivendell too. LOL!
HOWARD Phillips STOLE MY GLORY, and now all I can do is be on the receiving end of gas station glory holes. Speaking of holes, d’ya know I was involved in a cult that was all about womens…u know, holes? That was before I became a top general in the United States Marine Corp….anyway….
I love talking about the doctrines of grace, by which I mean hiding under multiple aliases and harassing Reformed preachers that don’t think the Triune God worshipped in the hills of Galilee two-thousand years ago ordained me to the task of telling everyone what to do and think. I love quoting myself, which is why I founded a website dedicated to accountability in ministry -Sweet Jesus I love me.
“Forgiveness” is something I say right before I hurl my son out into the cold streets of downtown Bristol, or right before I divorce my wife of twenty-three years. “Forgiveness” is how I get Padre Chori to worship before my feet, and is how I keep my children in awe of my bathrobe prancing majesty. Vance’s 1828 saith, “Forgiveness: no one has it BUT ME”.
How the hell did I ever land a woman in the first place? I guess that’ll always be a mystery to me and the Endacotts both.
Frank told me to pray that Pastor Matt Trewhella or my buddy Bruce Murch don’t find out about how I’ve been spreading rumors about them being Open Theists and quasi charismatics…oh wait…maybe they have. Damn, looks like it. I hope they don’t squeel about how I’m the grand-poo-bah of the radical anti-abortion movement (I’m Atomic Dog, not Jim).
My modus operandi, like M.C. Hammer said, can’t be touched. I will find you, go to your church, befriend you, kiss your posterior, get you to like me, and once you’ve winked at my butt, I will then proceed to wreck your life and start a gossip squad to get the skinny on all your skin sessions (that means you, Wizard Windham!)
Gregory McDivitt of Badlands notoriety assessed me and my bisexual lover (Jen) years ago (call her at 1-210-845-9122, or her ex-husband at 1-210-845-9121), but Harry and his little possee of duplicitious donkey-dicks sold him down the shitter FOR ME! Hahahah! DUMBASSES!
Mike Metzler and St. Patty used to think I was their buddy…but “Stan” knows “Stacy” too well 2 trust him 4 a dolla.
Oh well -ain’t no thang. Even if the entire church were to disappear tonight, so long as I’m still alive, the rock upon which the church was built will still be going strong, right? After all, he did say, THOU ART PETER, and upon THIS rock, I will build my church.
Who am I? I’m your worst nightmare, you duplicitious WHORE. I’m the Presbyterian version of Gimli, a narcissist and Napolean-complexed nymphomaniac with a fuzzy little beard which I love to pull in between pontificating about Tim Dick’s yacht orgies near Daytona Beach.
Let’s hope I don’t go schizo and get all pissed off at myself for writing this, because the best thing to do is laugh at what is undoubtedly the funniest goddamn thing ever written. But being unstable and out of work, who knows…if Frank don’t find the joke funny, he makey Missa Pete go bye-bye for a long time-time. With pics. And there’s more than one of us. Mr. Booth is da truf. I got mad skills, nowhatimesayin?
LANDCASTER was the MAN-caster, not to be confused with fishers of men, of which I am the chief.
Werd 2 my man Bobby T, whoeva u b.
Petey go bye-bye…long time-time.
Hooo-hoo-hoo-hooo!
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For those still following the Vision Forum/Ligonier saga, Peter Kershaw is believed to be residing at 871 Lake View Dr. in the Branson/Springfield area of Missouri. He no longer lives in the Bristol/Abingdon area. He has also tried to take on a somewhat new appearance.
Michael Metzler is a pooh-head.
Stinkier Pete, it’s obvious to me by the way you talk that you’re very duplicitious. You’re a phony, magnanimous cowboy.
And I like cowboys. I think they’re cute. 🙂
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Puff the magic dragon. Hit on Mary Jane. Smoke weed people. All day, every day. It’s our only hope.
peter kershaw masturbates to harry seabrook abortion porn
From Kathryn Joyce’s new book, “Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement”:
“In the fall of 2006, the Epsteins began to pseudonymously began to tell the public about Doug Phillips failings through a Ministry Watchdog site, Ministry Watchman, that had written extensively on the downfall of R.C. Sproul Jr….Having begun telling their story through third parties at the Ministry Watchman site, with whom they continued to plan further articles, storylines, and investigations, Jennifer spent hours talking on the phone with her male coauthors. Mark became jealous and began acting out online: dropping cryptic hints on his own blog that a new bombshell was brewing or mentioning facts out of order, causing confusion among Jennifer’s growing readership. “The others and I decided we couldn’t trust Mark anymore with what was going on strategy-wise,” Jennifer told me. They shut him out of plans about how to further unfold the story.”
I wonder who Jennifer’s “male coauthors” that she talked to for hours and hours might be?
Here’s one suspect, who has resided in
Boulder, CO
Arvada, CO
Westminster, CO
Bristol, TN
Bristol, VA
Forsyth, MO
Branson, MO
…and was arrested in 1995 for acting out on one of his extremist views:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3104/3196890590_857e2b6581.jpg?v=0
Apparently, this individual (on the far right…as usual) is known for his cowardice and duplicity, particularly in regard to conning his friends and family into thinking he owns the houses he lives in. Not quite…
Actually, this individual mooches off of people while claiming to offer tax-relief services…at which point they’re screwed by him and his consorts. He recently ‘divorced’ his wife of 25 years, albeit they never got a marriage license.
He’s sorta like a spider catching innocent critters in its web, tying them up, and then devouring them whole.
I think he’s got these critters in his sight:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=3953+Green+Mountain+Dr.+Branson,+MO&ie=UTF8&split=0&ll=36.65155,-93.293281&spn=0.007179,0.019054&z=16&iwloc=addr
To contact someone who might be able to inform you in more detail as to the whereabouts and possible location of this man, who is known “pseudonymously” as “Frank Vance”, “Henry Barnes”, “Rick Clinton”, “Lawdog”, “Watchman”, “T. Reformed”, “Brett Rollins”, “Hammerman”, “Thomas Baxter”, and “Ex-VF Supporter”, and “Like Father, Like Son” call 417-336-5452.
Peter, Peter pumpkin eater,
Had a wife but couldn’t keep her
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You spirit convict you,. on some TRUTH?
YOUR.. word misuseage,. species seperating,. hider blogger pewk zone,. genatalia ravagement catering,. ill wrought behavior training modules EXAMPLE standing in front of you too,.. finally?
:{p yea!?
Renouce it! Seek and teach only TRUTH.
Seek the strength of another better grounded (in TRUTH) when you are weak.
What? I got my issues,. did i mention my pet.. cock?
God said i got to renouce my seperation unto it?
anyway..
Hey.. MR do i luvvv you? :{p
I mean.. not in a faggish same sexer way,. i mean,.. your not a MR at all?
Never mind me,.. i got issues? :{o
Did I mention out of all the christian ministries on planet earth,. that i’d bet Pastor Melissa Scott and however it is that her ministry will evolve,. with her position defined and example true.. on TRUTH (this the hard part,. because YOU ALL are not going to believe it) I see Pastor Melissa Scott (seperating Jesus from religion as a matter of Truth unveiled) I see this Jewish traditions giving and tithing first fruits clarified for what IT WAS,. you give as you are able as the spirit convicts. You only GIVE REGULARLY where they stand on obvious TRUTH!
I honestly think Melissa should marry me,. (i will sign a prenup.. i want nothing,. only you.. able.. and TRUTH) silly loony.. mE?
I was sure god promised! :{p anyway..
I see,. seperating unto ANY religion doctrine on planet earth.. ending.
I see ALL.. after defining Jesus way.. (the temple the clearest defining moment) joining together as individuals accountable.. on process of obvious truth. As HE!
The RELIGION.. NIXED.. Jesus seperated OUT,. the BODY joined as ONE!
TRUTH.
THE.. Ministry Of Order.
No RELIGION titler contortionist bullshit.
No liar pervert governments a muck rule misusing sickness!
Order.. based from defining the outcome of behavior.
Christ Returned.
Planet Risen.
What?
God said id be long dead.. but,.that it was going to be a piece of cake.
I see Pastor Melissa Scott having one of the greatest ministries on earth. Out in front gathering those like he. Paying where they eat.. supporting the beacon that is bringing the truth of what Jesus was really teaching about in the world of that day. Bible facts. Biblical History. ANd what it means TODAY!
Whoa?
Straight forward Bible?
Rightly Defined?
Whatever?
if yer skeered,. say yer skeered?
hehe!
oh.. alright.. get your boots on.
I just luvvv you.
I dont give a shit about any of them.
Renouce behavior. Forgiven.
I do care that these ministries look intertwined.. aligned.
Under duress of principalities,. rampant.
I do care they are obviously sex based piss poor examples.. TRAINING others.
More than anything else..
Im particularly distrot that any human was led by any of these to finance or fund their planet contorting major ministry.
Jesus operated.. transparent.
If you can let principalities rampant know you are coming.. they rise to the occassion,. just like when Jesus asked the man his name. A choice nust be made.
Where will he be defined coming from.
Can his spirit convict him to standing on truth?
If you hide.. who you are,. or,.what you do.. then what you do.. is worth hiding.. for some other reason,. perhaps to protect,. a malody?
Do as HE!
Do as HE told you to do!
Do as they following him!
Risen that third day in every soul followed!
He is RISEN!
YOUR MONEY should ONLY FUND where there is OBVIOUS TRUTH taught!
What?
ok.. ok.. so.. you want to see if this dude is you and she she?
I might post it.
I can tell you.. its live on the net now.. with three or four other vid clip groups.
Lets play.. Identify the preacher doing porn with your money?
See bakker lately?
Hes taken up playing the heart strings of elderly.
Heard him toss that 10% bullshit at them also.
I got to vomit.. fuc’n vulture users.
I like to lean my head back a bit as I vomit.. i can get distance,. more of a puddle to splash around in.
Now thats funny?
REALITY!
TRUTH!
god is hilarious huh?
What do you get when you wake up and realize your mega ministry.. GODs mega ministry has been groomed by you misusing his perfect vessel,. setting some example from your sex base genatalia ravagement that makes this a presentation of perverts amd liars ravaged,. versus a defining of TRUTH and freeing of humans from bondage under self and others?
You get?
The obvious TRUTH you took it ALL for granted!
You’re a freaking sick idiot IN TRUTH. Aside from all the insane things you blab about, Pastor Melissa Scott was exposed as porn slut “Barbie Bridges”. She doesn’t even really deny it. http://www.marieclaire.com/world-reports/news/latest/melissa-scott-porn-pastor
Pastor Melissa Scott was also exposed for having a recent affair with the porn sperm donor John Holliday http://lukeford.net/blog/?p=8163
PMS has spent a fortune on lawyers tracking down all her Barbie Bridges porn and threatening anyone who doesn’t take it off their web sites. But she can’t get all of it off the net by just threatening to sue because some of it is hosted outside the US. http://www.ahot.dk/erotik/erotik_galleri.asp?ID=0946
Wake up IN TRUTH! You’re believing lies!
The above is probably Peter Kershaw or an affiliate trying to flood this thread with random madness so as to distract the reader from his complicity in sabotage, cyber-bullying, and defamation.
Nice conspiracy theory BUTTE. I didn’t comment about whoever Peter Kershaw is. Whatever your beef is with him leave me out of it. My beef is with ignorant followers of Pastor Melissa Scott randomly posting ignorant praises to her all over the internet.
Totally agree with you though about all the random madness in this thread. I won’t waste the time reading it all, but the little I’ve read looks like yours isn’t the only conspiracy theory here. The internet is awash in wingnuts.
Unless IN TRUTH comes back to comment more I’m done here.
Peter Kershaw is STILL whining about R.C. Sproul Jr. under the alias, “Disappointed” on Spiritwaterblood.
http://spiritwaterblood.com/2010/06/all-our-actions-upbraid-us-of-folly/#comment-16426
What a loser.
If R.C. is indeed in Orlando, I’m going to have to track him down and write him a check for a two-week all-expenses paid trip to Disney World and Busch Gardens. Maybe buy him a bottle of Scotch.
Must suck so bad to be married and have kids, playing these games.
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peter kershaw likes buttsecks.
The Taney County Republican Party Caucus had Peter Kershaw (now residing in Ridgedale, MO) as its committee chairman just recently. Here he is, third photo down on the left:
http://www.krzkradio.com/9593/taney_county_republicans_choose_delegates.html
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The relation between two countries is not cordial but that air of antagonism has never stopped or forced any business from withdrawing any of their business initiatives. *Run or move the pearl gently along the sharp edge of front teeth. With this mobile phone you will be able to program it to recognize your own handwriting alone.
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そうであってもこのような支出の傾向を示し続ければ簡単にあなたが、借金を返済するためにそれを作る借金の統合後には、多くの金融トラブルを呼び出し、実際にされています。また、故意に近い債務の状況に人々から利用していますいくつかの悪徳企業に注意する必要があります。これは、あなたのビジネスは経費が増殖し、最大マウントするために始めると成長し、し始め、特にとして、非常に重要な要因である。個別のビジネスアカウントは、正確にあなたの予算はいくらですので、参照してくださいあなたがより効果的にビジネス上の意思決定を行うことができるようになりますのに役立ちます。
Внимание, КИДАЛЫ!
Итак, история. Весной прошлого года мы (мы – это магазин «МотоДжин», к которому Ваш покорный слуга имеет непосредственное отношение. Для тех, кто не в курсе – Алекс Джин мой родной брат), по просьбе владельцев «Олимп-моторс», поставили им на реализацию весьма солидную партию кожи (одежду, обувь, кофры и тп.) и мотоэкипа на условиях, что по мере реализации, когда будет набираться более-менее значительная сумма мы будем забирать деньги и подвозить товар. Реализовывалось все это непосредственно в помещении «Олимп-моторс», где они поставили стеллажи и пр.
По прошествии нескольких месяцев мы решили посчитаться с «Олимп-моторс», т.к. по нашим данным продажи у них проходили, причем достаточно активно. Когда мы приехали на место, никто ничего вразумительного нам сказать не смог, т.к. не было менеджера, который занимался экипом. Типа что-то продавалось, а что конкретно и на какую сумму – непонятно. И еще нам поведали историю, о том, что в данный момент в компании не все гладко, меняется штат, трудные времена и денег особо нет. И предложили нам свои услуги по подбору и оформлении мототехники (безусловно с учетом тех денег, что были нам должны). А как раз в это время у Вашего покорного слуги обострилась старая травма колена, и было совершенно непонятно, смогу ли я в дальнейшем управлять обычным мотоциклом. И вот тут Ваш покорный слуга совершает первую глупость – мы заказываем через «Олимп-моторс» (Кидалы) мотоцикл для ленивых – CFTmoto V5 (мот со скутерным вариатором), которых на тот момент днем с огнем в Украине не найти было в продаже. «Олимп-моторс» берется поставить нам его за 2800 убитых енотов новый откуда-то из Черкасской обл. и просит проавансировать 2000, а остальное – в счет долга. Тут Ваш покорный слуга совершает вторую глупость и мы авансируем вышеупомянутую сумму. И что интересно – через неделю мотоцикл действительно приходит, правда с небольшими оговорками:
1) Он действительно новый, хоть и 2008 года выпуска
2) Он разукомплектован – отсутствуют зеркала, акуммулятор, защитная решетка и т.п. («Олимп-моторс» обязались все поставить на место)
3) Пластиковый обвес в нескольких местах поврежден («Олимп-моторс» за повреждения во время транспортировки ответственности не несет, хотя почему – не понятно)
4) Отсутствуют какие-либо документы на мотоцикл (не дослали, понимаешь).
Ну, мы такой мотоцикл брать отказались и попросили недочеты устранить. Через некоторое время пришли документы (справка-счет оказалась выписана почему-то в г. Ильичевске, а совем не в Черкасской обл.), а сертификат на партию (есть такая форма для изделий из Поднебесной) просроченный на год. Как нас уверили в «Олимп-моторс» – фигня, у них с МРЭО все на мази и за 350 баксов они нам его поставят на учет (ну, дороговато, но у нас на тот момент уже начали закрадываться кое-какие сомнения в том, что мы какие-то деньги увидим). Ну и мы согласились на то, что опять же в счет долга нам его на учет поставят. И это была третья глупость с нашей стороны, т.к. и мотоцикл, и документы на него остались в салоне «Олимп-моторс».
Ну а дальше началось самое интересное – звонишь Жене – он отсылает к Славику. Звонишь Славику – он отсылает к Жене. Потом Женя вообще перестал брать трубку, сменил несколько номеров телефонов и пр. Так продолжалось несколько месяцев, в результате чего мы приняли решение силой забрать хоть то, что осталось. Оставшиеся экип и кожу забрать удалось, а вот мотоцикл – нет, ибо документы-то остались у Жени. Ну, периодически мы туда, конечно, наведывались, но большей частью никого там не заставали. А вот совсем недавно Джин случайно проезжал мимо и увидел Женин «мерс», стоящий возле «Олимп-Моторс», ну и, естественно, зашел в гости. Ну, естественно, там ему сказали, чтобы он убирался, пока его не сдали в милицию, и вообще, чтобы мы забыли к ним дорогу навсегда. Кстати, от техников выяснилось, что наш мотоцикл они давным-давно перепродали.
Ну, да Бог с ними, это их жизнь – им самим выбирать, какова она будет. Просто не хочется, чтобы пострадал еще кто-то.
А, да, Женя Федив (кидала) сказал, что «мы очень пожалеем, если предадим огласке данный инцидент». Мы, конечно, уже безмерно жалеем об этом
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